Orthodox view on the "Nephilim"

TheLostCoin · Feb 7, 2019

1stcenturylady said:
They don't enter into marriage WITH EACH OTHER. They are sons of God, not sons and daughters of God. Homosexuality is an abomination.

But Christ says that angels aren't given into marriage. Matthew 22:30 and Mark 12:25.

1stcenturylady · Feb 7, 2019

TheLostCoin said:
But Christ says that angels aren't given into marriage. Matthew 22:30 and Mark 12:25.

Homosexual marriage isn't lawful, so, of course they aren't given into marriage. The fallen angels sinned. Two difference species. Bestiality is also forbidden.

1stcenturylady · Feb 7, 2019

The "sons of Seth" being the sons of God theory, mating with the women of Cain doesn't hold water either, because how could this happen "afterwards"? Only the pure line ending with Noah's family survived. All Cain's line drowned in the flood. So the only reasonable conclusion is not all the fallen angels bred with women, and after the flood, other fallen angels did the same thing, but weren't thrown into the pit as were the first group.

TheLostCoin · Feb 7, 2019

1stcenturylady said:
The "sons of Seth" being the sons of God theory, mating with the women of Cain doesn't hold water either, because how could this happen "afterwards"? Only the pure line ending with Noah's family survived. All Cain's line drowned in the flood. So the only reasonable conclusion is not all the fallen angels bred with women, and after the flood, other fallen angels did the same thing, but weren't thrown into the pit as were the first group.

Not really - if we hold onto this theory, Noah's family would have repopulated the lands to such an extent that - eventually - some giants would again appear.

TheLostCoin · Feb 7, 2019

TheLostCoin said:
Actually, Jude refers to angels fornicating.

"6 And angels who had not kept their own original state, but had abandoned their own dwelling, he keeps in eternal chains under gloomy darkness, to [the] judgment of [the] great day;

7 as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities around them, committing greedily fornication, in a like manner with them, and going after other flesh, lie there as an example, undergoing the judgment of eternal fire."

In the Greek, "with them" is masculine, so "with them" can't be referring to the cities, which are feminine, but rather "angels", which are masculine.

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/jud1.pdf

It could just be a reference to the story and not a complete endorsement of the story?

I could be wrong,

And I've been thinking about it, but one possible idea is that Jude is simply quoting Peter, and Jude is just invoking the Jewish story in order to prove a point. The epistles are both written to heretics who were marrying the Church's members, and Jude is comparing these heretics to both the angels of the story and Sodom and Gomorrah.

The Apostles are known for using Pagan and Jewish cultural stories and references to prove a point - after all, Peter refers to Jesus as "the Morning Star," and in John, Jesus Himself refers to Himself as the "Morning Star," in a reference to the Greek god Phosphorous, who brings the dawn - in much the same way that Christ brings us light. It does not literally mean that Jesus is the Greek god Phosphorous; so it's possible that the Bible here isn't making a definitive declaration on the legitimacy of Enoch.

But it's completely possible in my opinion that Peter and Enoch genuinely believed in this story.

1stcenturylady · Feb 7, 2019

TheLostCoin said:
Not really - if we hold onto this theory, Noah's family would have repopulated the lands to such an extent that - eventually - some giants would again appear.

Mating with whom to produce giants? Don't forget whose left, and who isn't.

TheLostCoin · Feb 7, 2019

1stcenturylady said:
Mating with whom? Don't forget whose left, and who isn't.

Noah's sons and their wives producing offspring - which, again, is a whole point of discussion in regards to how literally we are supposed to take the Book of Genesis.

How would angels - invisible creatures whom we can't physically touch or see - be able to add genetic diversity?

1stcenturylady · Feb 7, 2019

TheLostCoin said:
Noah's sons and their wives producing offspring - which, again, is a whole point of discussion in regards to how literally we are supposed to take the Book of Genesis.

How would angels - invisible creatures whom we can't physically touch or see - be able to add genetic diversity?

How did Mary get pregnant from an invisible being? We don't know much about the physicality of angels.

TheLostCoin · Feb 7, 2019

1stcenturylady said:
How did Mary get pregnant from an invisible being? We don't know much about the physicality of angels.

The Holy Spirit didn't have sex with Mary, the Holy Spirit descended on her causing her miraculous, Virgin conception of Christ.
She remained a Virgin after Christ's birth.

1stcenturylady · Feb 7, 2019

TheLostCoin said:
The Holy Spirit didn't have sex with Mary, the Holy Spirit descended on her causing her miraculous, Virgin conception of Christ.
She remained a Virgin after Christ's birth.

Scripture does not claim she remained a virgin, that is Catholic tradition only. Jesus brothers are named in scripture. No where does scripture say that Joseph had been a widower and had other children. Adding to Scripture is forbidden.

TheLostCoin · Feb 7, 2019

1stcenturylady said:
Scripture does not claim she remained a virgin, that is Catholic tradition only. Jesus brothers are named in scripture. No where does scripture say that Joseph had been a widower and had other children. Adding to Scripture is forbidden.

Just like believing in the Book of Enoch, which isn't part of the Canon of Scripture?

Also, most Protestants even believe that Mary remained a Virgin when she gave birth to Jesus, only not remaining a Virgin after the Birth of Christ.

"Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus."

"Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.
For with God nothing shall be impossible.
And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her."

Now, I know I won't convince you that she remained a virgin until her death, but let me ask you a question - if you had God Himself in your womb, why would you ever want to have sex again? Think about how God made the Burning Bush's plot of land Holy when He was present there, and Moses had to take off his sandals. What does that say about Mary's womb?

1stcenturylady · Feb 7, 2019

TheLostCoin said:
Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus."

Note what is in red.

1stcenturylady · Feb 7, 2019

good night all.

TheLostCoin · Feb 7, 2019

1stcenturylady said:
Note what is in red.

1 Timothy 4:13
"Until I come, attend to the public reading of scripture, to preaching, to teaching."

Does this mean that Timothy should stop reading scripture, preaching, and teaching?

1 Corinthians 15:25
"For He (Christ) must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet."

Does this mean that Christ's reign will end?

In Greek, this word "until" does not imply a "stop" to the action.

And yes, Jesus had brothers, but in Orthodoxy, we recognize the fact that Joseph was a widow before he got married to Mary, and they are step brothers of Jesus. James, the Brother of Jesus, would be the main ruler of the Church of Jerusalem while the other Apostles preached the Gospel around the known world.

TheLostCoin · Feb 7, 2019

1stcenturylady said:
good night all.

Goodnight! Thanks for the conversation!
(I love your profile pic)

Lukaris · Feb 7, 2019

TheLostCoin said:
Interesting. But that leads to a question of how angels could procreate with humans, considering they are immaterial and genderless.

And that's another question - if the Flood allegedly killed off every person except for Noah and his children how do we make of the fact that Goliath was one of these giants, after the Flood happened? If angels could copulate with humans after the flood, why don't they copulate now? Why are there no giants now?

These were fallen angels as opposed to the angels in heaven spoken of by the Lord ( Matthew 22:30-32).

PittBullMom · Feb 7, 2019

I always thought about this. Seriously.

Lukaris · Feb 7, 2019

In my reply #36, I also mentioned that I think the post flood “giants” were intimidating & exceptionally tall people back in the day. For some reason my post came out incomplete,

TheLostCoin · Feb 7, 2019

Lukaris said:
These were fallen angels as opposed to the angels in heaven spoken of by the Lord ( Matthew 22:30-32).

So demons have genders, whereas angels don't?
While it's possible, I think Saint John Cassian brings up some important points.

From Book 1, Conference 8

"We cannot possibly believe that spiritual existences can have carnal intercourse with women. But if this could ever have literally happened how is it that it does not now also sometimes take place, and that we do not see some in the same way born of women by the agency of demons without intercourse with men? Especially when it is clear that they delight in the pollution of lust, which they would certainly prefer to bring about through their own agency rather than through that of men, if they could possibly manage it…
---
As long then as there continued that separation of the lines between them, the seed of Seth, as it sprang from an excellent root, was by reason of its sanctity termed "angels of God," or as some copies have it "sons of God;" and on the contrary the others by reason of their own and their fathers' wickedness and their earthly deeds were termed "children of men."
----
From these sons of Seth then and daughters of Cain, as we have said, there were I born still worse children who became mighty hunters, violent and most fierce men who were termed giants by reason of the size of their bodies and their cruelty and wickedness. For these first began to harass their neighbours and to practise pillaging among men, getting their living rather by rapine than by being contented with the sweat and labour of toil, and their wickedness increased to such a pitch that the world could only be purified by the flood and deluge. So then when the sons of Seth at the instigation of their lust had transgressed that command which had been for a long while kept by a natural instinct from the beginning of the world, it was needful that it should afterwards be restored by the letter of the law: "Thou shalt not give thy daughter to his son to wife, nor shalt thou take a wife of his daughters to thy son; for they shall seduce your hearts to depart from your God, and to follow their gods and serve them."

TheLostCoin · Feb 7, 2019

PittBullMom said:
I always thought about this. Seriously.

Well, there is some syncretism with local Babylonian myth, except rather than angels, they were divine beings, and in Babylonian myth, rather than bringing about evil and degeneracy in the Eyes of God, they were seen as bearers of wisdom that men looked up to for knowledge.

So while I still stick with a Christian view, that if they were actually angelic beings, they were demons, it wouldn't surprise me if I died and found out I was wrong - that they were aliens.

Orthodox view on the "Nephilim"

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