Original Sin

xx.mortekai.xx · Aug 18, 2011

I am an atheist. I am not going to beat around the bush about that.

I look at your theology, and the claim of a just and merciful god, to me, is in conflict with the doctorine of original sin.

I cannot see how original sin is not god holding me responsible for the actions of adam and eve. That, to me, is highly immoral and also goes against free will. I am born tainted because of the actions of another, which means that I am being punished for the actions completely out of my control, and actions that occurred, supposedly, long before I was born.

Please, If I have this incorrect, feel free to correct me. I am well versed in christian theology, but always welcome being shown that I am wrong (if the argument against mine is sound).

mrmccormo · Aug 18, 2011

Let's make sure we understand each other's terms.

When you say "original sin", what you mean is this: Adam and Eve sinned, and simply by being born, simply by being conceived and being born into the world, I have also "sinned". Since I have committed a "sin" by being born, if I die without Jesus, I will go to Hell, because that is where sinners go.

Is that your understanding of "original sin"?

Some Christians view the "curse of Adam and Eve" as death and our weak will to resist sin. In other words, we are born without the strong resolve to resist temptation, and we will - at some point in our lives - commit sin. The only things that we inherit from Adam and Eve are the curse of mortal death and our weak will.

I do not believe that we have "sinned" simply because we are born. That goes against both the Old Testament's definition of the Law and the New Testament's definition of grace. A sin is a deed, thought, or word. But let's take that a step further: "sin" is what the Law has revealed as sin. In the New Testament, we are told that the Law is not there to save us, but simply to reveal our sin. An infant cannot commit a "sin" in any of those three ways, and a baby has no knowledge of the Law, not even from its own conscience. Now, that's not to say that no one sins. Any parent knows that their child will one day say "no!", or lie, or steal from the little brother. But these are willful choices.

Some Christians do believe in original sin, and as such they perform infant baptisms (but don't be confused: not all infant baptizers believe in original sin). For those who believe in original sin and baptize their babies, they do it because they believe that if their baby died, it would not be saved from its sins (what "sins" did it commit, exactly?) and it would go to hell or maybe just "baby hell". It's illogical and it doesn't fit with Scripture, but that's how some (not all) Christians view original sin.

Personally, I believe that we come under the judgment of sin when we...you know...actually sin.

mrmccormo · Aug 18, 2011

Another point to explore is what exactly did Adam and Eve do? Did they sin and then somehow force their offspring to also commit sin?

Or, did they unleash sin on the world? To reference Greek mythology, they opened Pandora's box. Obviously, temptation was around before we sinned (because tempation is what led to sin). But I think it could be argued that rampant temptation did not exist until Adam and Eve sinned and then unleashed it upon the world. So, we're not born with some kind of robotic programming that literally forces us to sin. It's not like we think "nah, I'd rather not cheat on my wife" but then our body starts moving on its own and we are forced to do it. We are born with a weak will that - sooner or later -will succumb to the many different flavors of sin on the market.

elman · Aug 18, 2011

Ezekiel 18. Original sin is a man made idea. Not from God. We kill our own soul with our own sin.

ptomwebster · Aug 18, 2011

Of course you don't understand it, you are trying to by yourself and that cannot be done. You need the help of the Holy Spirit, whom you do not believe in.

Brenda Morgan · Aug 18, 2011

I have read the story of Adam and Eve many times and I don't see the sin.

First off the Bible says Eve was deceived.[1Timothy 2:14]
Is it a sin if you are deceived. If you are deceived there is no INTENT to sin. Wouldn't you expect unintentional sin to be easily forgiven. Doesn't it happen often. Someone does something...says I'm sorry....and you say it's OK I forgive you.

So now we look at Adam.
God said...From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.

IN THE DAY THAT YOU EAT IT YOU WILL SURELY DIE.

Eve ate the fruit. Adam expected her to surely die that day. But she didn't die! What was Adam to conclude from these events?
Did he somehow misunderstand God's command? Or Heaven forbid...had the serpent told the truth when he said ....You will not surely die.
Either way...since Eve did not die, Adam believed that the fruit was SAFE to eat.
In essense, Adam was misled by the events into believing the fruit was safe because God failed to do what he said he would do.

Dark_Lite · Aug 18, 2011

Moved to Exploring Christianity.

bling · Aug 18, 2011

There is a ton of information to learn from the Adam and Eve story. Yes, they were the first to sin and in that way it is the original sin, but that just changed the method and place for humans to fulfill their objective. It was not a “fall” but a transition similar to maturing in young people today that sin for the first time.

Yes, they had to leave the Garden and would die physically, but the Garden is a lousy place to fulfill our earthly objective as we all now can all see from the Adam and Eve experience and death also helps us fulfill our earthly objective. Death is the way good people get to go home and the way bad people quit doing bad stuff.

Yes, we all now have additional knowledge about good and evil, which does provide us with lots more ways to sin. BUT, sin is not the problem (unforgiven sin can be a problem) and keeping from sinning is not man’s objective.

elopez · Aug 18, 2011

Original sin can be understood in two different ways, and the one more relevant understanding of is only opposite to how you describe it. The first being the original sin Adam and Eve committed in the Garden when they disobeyed God. The second meaning is the affect that first sin has on the rest of mankind.

Romans 5:12 states: "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned." Paul describes the affect of Adam's sin is death, which we can take both in the physical and spiritual sense (damnation/separation from God). As death is the consequence of sin then death is not identical to sin and thus would not be the only thing to result from the Fall.

"Just as sin entered the world through one man." Yes, sin entered the world though Adam in that his first sin affects all of his descendants and theirs on so on so that all of humanity is eventually affected with 'sin.' In other words, we are naturally 'sinners.' Though this 'sin' differs from a normal sin in that one which is personally committed. A sin that has been personally committed is a sin that one can be blameworthy for. In order to be blameworthy for a sin one must A) commit the sin with full knowledge of the sin itself and the gravity of the offense, and B) commit the sin with full consent and voluntarily so that one is not coerced into the sin and is a personal desicion.

Though Adam's first sin does affect us, we have no knowledge of Adam's first sin or what sin is at all, and nor do we consent or even personally commit the sin of Adam, so we therefore cannot be held accountable for it. Concisely then, we are affected by the Fall, not held accountable for it. This 'sin' affects our very human nature in that we are inclined to sin or at least do sin on whatever degree. This 'sin' is the becoming of sin, not actual sin itself.

That is how original sin is not humanity taking responsibility for our parent's first sin. That specific doctrine is called "original responsibility," or something like that. I believe it states that humanity was there with Adam when he sinned and thus took part of it. I've only witnessed one proponent outright argue that position, so I don't find that it's very popular at all in Christendom.

Myshkin99 · Aug 18, 2011

You do not have free will. We are simply tools.

That's what makes God's actions just and/or merciful. We are born guilty. Then, we get either justice or mercy. I'm not sure if you can get justice and mercy, because mercy can be reasonably defined as getting a good outcome when you don't deserve it. We don't deserve it, yet some get it anyway.

Is it "fair"? Probably not. But it is just.

That's the way I see it in my tiny mind, anyway.

elman · Aug 19, 2011

I believe in a Creator that is good and loving all the time that created us with the ability to respond to that love with love. Read Ezekiel 18 where it says we are only responsbile for our sins, not the sins of our father and tell me how that can be understood to mean we are born guilty.

salida · Aug 19, 2011

Just and merciful God? If a person breaks the law and doesn't go to jail is this just? God is love and perfect justice. Would it be good if no laws existed? Countries would be in total chaos. If a parent tells a child to stop touching the hot stove and they do it anyway that child is going to get burned. Its not the parents fault.

Ask them-Are you a good person? www.livingwaters.com/good/
Can you keep the 10 commandments 100% of the time all the time? So, have you ever lied or steal something or break any of these commandments once in your life? If the answer is yes-than you are guilty.
We are all guilty. Only Jesus kept these. Also, if a doctor had just one cure for you to live would you tell him no? Not all roads lead to heaven and all cures from all possible doctors cant cure a cancer patient. Like a bypass wont help a cancer patient if they put faith in it-without chemo their dead. The all road ordeal doesnt work in the real world.

God gives men many chances
From one man he made every nation of men, so that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the time set for them and the exact places where they should live. God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out to him, though he is not far from each one of us, Acts 17:26-27.

Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.

People are accountable for their actions; being an athiest you may not agree with this and not like this but this won't change anything.

razeontherock · Aug 19, 2011

This topic is interesting to me! G-d Himself personally showed me about this, when I was 20. 25 years later I discovered CF, and encountered some new info on the topic. I have re-considered to a less-sure position that still holds all the info I previously accepted, and it "fits" better.

You may find it interesting that Christians that call themselves Orthodox, teach against original sin as you are likely thinking of the term here ... and I would suggest that their debating sub-forum might be a very interesting place for you.

razeontherock · Aug 19, 2011

This is extremely interesting!

The sin is as simple as they both willfully did what they knew G-d had commanded them not to do. There was no apple, and the fact that it is left simply as "fruit" is very telling. It doesn't matter what they did, other than the fact they violated G-d's command AND KNEW IT.

I see Adam as a type of Christ. He was not deceived. He chose to be with his wife, even though it meant certain death:

(Genesis 2:24) Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh."

Adam's choice and free will, G-d's foreknowledge - no contradiction.

Adam dropped the ball on his responsibility in MANY ways! Why did he not intercede as Priest, on her behalf? He could have stopped her, or failing that, not indulged and sought her forgiveness the next time G-d came by for a stroll.

He could've killed the snake.

We see this irresponsible behavior being corrected in Adam's Judgment.

Even so, the most interesting part about this is the fact they both knew she didn't immediately drop dead, and what went on in their thinking when what they saw contradicted what they knew to be True, from the mouth of G-d. This is the part of the story that is SO applicable to each and every one of us, and the first step is to see that G-d did EXACTLY what He said He would do. Accepting this as a constant is as big a step as some are ready for. Agreeing with Him about His decisions is the next step ...

juvenissun · Aug 19, 2011

You (and I, everyone else) are NOT be punished without a good reason. We sin because we go against God. It is exactly the expression of our free will.

The idea of original sin "explains" why do we sin. God only gives Adam ONE rule, yet he failed. Imagine that God gives us many rules at later time. Now, God tells us: love your neighbors. Again, we failed it miserably.

We are not punished because of anyone else. The original sin is not conditional (means you must sin), it is a description (mean you will sin).

xx.mortekai.xx · Aug 21, 2011

I love asking theological questions of christians, because you guys can never agree on what the doctorine is. Sorry, but there is a reason that the bible is known in my community as "the big book of multiple choice"

One of many reasons I am an atheist, and will be until the day I die. My mind cannot accept the cognitive dissonance that comes with your religion.

Maybe some of you can answer me how one gets into heaven? How about Jesus's last words on the cross?

chilehed · Aug 21, 2011

Study the text at the following link:
USCCB - Catechism of the Catholic Church

Here's a brief excerpt:

"But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state. It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called "sin" only in an analogical sense: it is a sin "contracted" and not "committed"a state and not an act."

Criada · Aug 21, 2011

Mod Hat On

This thread has been cleaned up to remove the debating
Please remember, this is a forum to answer the OP's questions. If you want to debate an issue with other Christians, please take it to the Theology forums.
Thanks

Mod Hat Off

Faulty · Aug 21, 2011

You are held accountable for your sins alone, not the sins of Adam. However it was through his sin that all mankind fell. Scripture states:

"But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one mans trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the result of that one mans sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. For if, because of one mans trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ."
Romans 5:15-17

Our condemnation come through the sin of one man, Adam, is that our justification is also brought to us also through one man, Jesus.

The problem with denying original sin to all mankind through Adam is that it also denies the redemption through Jesus to all mankind, because the two have been tied together in scripture. One cannot accept eternal life, while rejecting original sin. Death canme through one man. Justification also came to us by one man.

One doesn't need to look far for evidence of our fallen nature. Just try to get a 2-year old to share his favorite toy, "Mine!", or get him to go to bed, "No!". That's real life evidence of original sin. One might say it's normal and that we are just born that way. Which is exactly correct, Ephesians 2:1 states we were born dead in trespasses and sins. It's what comes natural to us.

elman · Aug 23, 2011

God's grace and free gift to those who love others. Matt 25:31 and following.

Original Sin

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... and God saw that it was good.

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bind on pick up

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