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Species8472

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The Cherub with the flaming sword.

The Catholic faith believes that sexual love was original sin; but in genesis 4:1, it says, Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived. But no where in that passage does it say that God was wrougth with either Adam or Eve for doing so.
In the new testament, Corinthians 7:36, it says, But if any man think that he behaveth himself uncomely toward his virgin, if she pass the flower of her age, and need so require let him do what he will; he sinneth not: let them marry.
Now, if sexual love is original sin but in the new testament it says, he (they) sinneth not then how, if Adam and Eve dwelt as one flesh; and were man and wife, then how could their sexual love be considered sin?

Now, according to the bible, man was made after the likeness of God. If man was made after the likeness of God then we could assume some attributes that are shared between man and God: for instance, man consumes food, speaks through verbal communication and even has genetalia.
We can further expand this concept of likeness by saying that animals were made in the likenss of God; since it is evident that they too share attributes with man; as it is evident. And for one being--that we share genetalia. Do we say that animals sin? No. We don't--that we may see that Gods' command: Be fruitful and multiply is part of His will. The only difference between man and animal is that--we(man) ate from the tree that God commanded not to eat of; therefore, we became like the gods, to know the difference between good and evil; whereas, animals ate not of the tree; therefore, they never came to know the difference between good and evil.

According to the bible, 1 John 3:4, whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law; for sin is the transgression of the law.
If we can assume that anything God commands becomes law; and if sin is the transgression of God's law, then we could assume that original sin would not be sexual love, rather, Adams' first transgression was disobeying Gods' command--to not eat of the tree that is in the midst of the garden.
It would then follow that a direct affect from Adam's transgression was his realization that he and Eve were naked; therefore, they came to know shame, which is the uncleaness of the body.
Because in Romans 14:14, it says, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
Never in the words of Christ does he mention that the body is unclean, rather, it is the church which has appointed uncleaness to the body; for in Christ, He elevated the body when He spoke--Is not the body finer than raiment? (Matthew 6:25)
Note--that never in Christ's words does He say anything about sexual love as being original sin, rather, He speaks of fornication and adultry as being sin.
Now, shame is sin; as after Adam had transgressed the command (law)--to not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden--sin entered the world; therefore, it could be assumed that shame was Adams' second sin; since, according to the new testament, Christ says there is no shame in the body; for He had elevated it by saying--Is not the body finer than raiment? Shame transgresses this saying of Christ, since it lowers what Christ had elevated--the body.
To further support this claim, I would have you refer to Romans 10:11, For the scripture saith, whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

To the church is the body a shame and most in particular, the genitals. And herein lies the hypocrisy of the church; if you will refer to 1 Corinthians 12: 21-23,...And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

Likewise, how is it that the eye of the church has bestowed dishonour to the genitals by saying because you have been used by the body--you (the genitals) have become a shame to us and deemed sinful; and called a part of original sin?
By calling the genitals part of original sin, and in so doing, the church has bestowed dishonour to this portion of the body; for the eye has seen the genetals and said to itself that the genitals are a shame and deemed unnecessary.
As I have foretold, in 1 John 3:4,...for sin is the transgression of the law.
And what was Adams' first transgression? It was his disobedience to Gods' command--to not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden; therefore, since Adams' first transgression was this then in essence, this could be, and is, original sin.

The genitals are beauty.

This you cannot accept because no one drinks old wine and immediately desires to drink new wine.
 

ReluctantProphet

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The "original sin" as it's called is referring to Lust, not sex. Sin merely means making an error in judgment. What causes a mind to make errors is the attempt to draw conclusion in a decision before all of the information available has been weighed.

Desire inspires the mind to accept a decision without carefully weighing in all of the evidence. That is called lust from "luster".
 
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Species8472

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What do you think sex requires? Lust is a craving for the genitals. If you think I'm wrong then you tell me in which other way one can crave anothers' genitals.
Love is a spiritual connection. Lust is the physical connection. Lust can be a part of Love. When two lovers crave eachothers genitals it is out of lust because as I have said lust is necessary for the physical connection; otherwise why would two lovers ever bother with eachothers genitals?
In marriage there is a spiritual sanctification in the commitment between the man and wife. Love is necessary to marriage. Lust is necessary to sex.
That is why when a man and a wife have sex there is no sin in it.
 
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Soul Searcher

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Lust is not just linked to sex, One can lust for money, power, fame, whatever.

Also related to the verse where Jesus is talking about looking at a woman with lust this would seem to be the commandment not to covet thy neighbors wife.

gunē
goo-nay'
Probably from the base of G1096; a woman; specifically a wife: - wife, woman.

epithumeō
ep-ee-thoo-meh'-o
From G1909 and G2372; to set the heart upon, that is, long for (rightfully or otherwise): - covet, desire, would fain, lust (after).

Is it wrong to desire your own wife? Is it wrong for a single man to desire a single woman? If it were then would anyone ever get married? Would the human race exist if men did not desire [lust after] women?
 
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Soul Searcher

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One reason is the desire to please the other person.
 
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Species8472

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One reason is the desire to please the other person.

Oh, and I suppose in the desire to please the other person there is no lust?
In desire there is a longing or craving for something. In sexual desire there is a craving for the genitals--to please anothers genitals. Therefore your desire originates from lust because in love there is no necessity to please anothers' genitals.
Without lust there would be no physical attraction shared between two people and therefore there would be no desire to please anothers' genitals.
Without lust there would be no physical attraction or desire between man nor woman.

Give me a reason that is not synonymous with lust because in desire and more specifically sexual desire (that of which you speak about) there are similar implications shared between lust and such desire.
 
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Soul Searcher

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Species8472

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Yes, that's true that we can say things like I lust for life; but lust is most usually related to sexual desire. With things like money, power and fame we usually associate with Greed; therefore it could be said that greed and lust are synonymous since they implicate the desire for more of something.
I never said it was wrong to desire your own wife. I said just the opposite when I said they commit no sin in doing so.
 
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ReluctantProphet

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You can desire a glass of water simply because your body is indicating that such is needed. That desire only becomes a lust when the water is perhaps ocean water or poisoned in some way, but the desire is so strong that your mind dismisses the danger.

Lust is DEFINED as a desire that overwhelms the balance of thought. But lusting is only a SIN if the lust actually leads to something bad for you or others. You can lust for your wife without concern of sin, assuming a normal relationship.

The common usage of lust = sex is merely the effect of the populous being drenched in temptations concerning sex to the point that the word lust became synonomous with sex. The word originally had no more to do with sex than any other craving. But sex, being one of the prime motivators in keeping the race going, is a strong desire that easily overwhelms, and thus strongly related to lusting.

Greed is more specifically referring to the lusting for more than needed to the exclusion of others, "selfishness".
 
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ReluctantProphet

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The entire concern of sexual craving is born from the strategic defense of the species to propagate seed. The old person (or even vegetation) seeks a means to continue their life. Sex is one of the prime means to do so and thus has developed strong over the generations. Those who kepted their race going by means of seeding are the ones who are most driven into the lusting of sex. If they had not lusted in that particular direction, then their race would be less significant in population and more threatened by competition and other concerns. This is why the Catholic still hangs on to pro-life sexual behavior. Countries predominately Catholic are very easily drawn into sexual lusting and thus the Catholic have stronger rules to govern the temptation and give it balance.

People and religions aren't as naive as I suspect you think.
 
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Species8472

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How did we get from sex to a glass of water?
 
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plmarquette

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I was raised a Roman Catholic , and practiced same for 42 years , and this is a new one to me ...

Adam and Eve sinned , disobeyed God , ate of the forbidden tree of good and evil ...

God instructed everything in the garden to go forth and multiply .... have sex , procreate , increase in numbers ..

God dealt with man through his chosen men rophets , kings , priests ... there was no law , until it was given to Moses ... where " lust / covetousness " was first defined
 
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rosenherman

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I was under the impression that original sin was Adam disobeying God and that sin was supposedly on our souls from conception. And supposedly the "Imaculate Conception" was Mary's conception without "original sin" on her soul.
 
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elman

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I was under the impression that original sin was Adam disobeying God and that sin was supposedly on our souls from conception. And supposedly the "Imaculate Conception" was Mary's conception without "original sin" on her soul.

Ezekiel 18 teaches I am not responsible for my father's sin, only my own sin. Therefor original sin is a man made idea, not from God.
 
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Soul Searcher

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Ezekiel 18 teaches I am not responsible for my father's sin, only my own sin. Therefor original sin is a man made idea, not from God.

I tend to agree but there is another passage that indicates other wise.
Exo 20:5 34:7 Num 14:18 Deu 5:9 all seem to indicate that the sins of the father will be held against the son and his son and perhaps his son as well.

It would certianly seem to be a direct contradiction.

That said I am in agreement with you that original sin is a man made concept.
 
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elman

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I agree. Either there are contradictions or the other references are referring to the consequences of sin. I agree the consequences of the fathers sin falls on his children, but I do not agree the children are the sinners because of the Father's sin.
 
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Verv

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I think that original sin, as a whole, is something that exists in our bodies and the nature of humanity: man must struggle and repent for his sins because there is no person that doesn't have a natural sex drive which leads them to want to commit impure acts with people who they are not married to.

The genitals are regarded as not positive for the reason that they often are a drive in our lives to commit sins -- sex often causes people to betray one another, causes jealousy, and the sex drive at its' most basic levels can even cause incidences of rape, pedophilia, homosexuality, etc. I think people can understand why Christians are not thrilled about the sex drive.

I think the sex drive ties back to original sin in the sense that we all have it (I have not heard of people without libidos, but if it exists I do not think it is still a person without original sin -- the id, inside of all of us, also drives us to hate and be jealous and be petty).
 
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