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You may be right on this, I wondered about this after I posted. But in my interlinear, the construct state is usually marked with a dash, and this one isn't... In any case, I'm not putting a huge amount of weight on that point. My greater case is that context determines meaning, and there is no reason to suggest that Genesis 2:4 needs to be made a literal day, and no reason that Genesis 1 needs to be made non-literal days. It is also true that every use of b'yom refers to indefinite time periods, while the yom in Genesis 1 is just yom. Introducing Genesis 2:4 into the discussion of Genesis 1 is just a red herring.Percivale said:Do you understand the Hebrew grammar of construct state? The first noun in a construct pair never takes the article, but is always definite if the second noun has the article. b'yom is construct "in the day of something."
I don't think I'm putting more weight on the English translation than the Hebrew. What gave you that impression? I think the Hebrew (or LXX) should be our primary source.Dysert - why would you put weight on an English translation, but say that the specifics of the Hebrew are unimportant?
Roonwit
Sorry, maybe I was mixing you up with someone else... I just remembered arguing with someone who was insisting on the English translation "in the day", and drawing implications from that that were unwarranted, and I had in mind it was you.I don't think I'm putting more weight on the English translation than the Hebrew. What gave you that impression? I think the Hebrew (or LXX) should be our primary source.
The following text is not original with me, but I'm not citing the source because I don't want *it* to distract from the point of the thread. I think it's important that we hash out what's right or wrong with the following points so that we can rightly divide the word of truth and not impose interpretations on the Bible that aren't warranted...
What does everyone think of these two points of view?
Do you understand the Hebrew grammar of construct state? The first noun in a construct pair never takes the article, but is always definite if the second noun has the article. b'yom is construct "in the day of something."
2:2 uses bayom not b'yom.Thanks.
I was looking at Gen 2:2. The seventh day. It uses b'yom seventh twice. To translate it "when seventh" would make no sense. In the seventh day (In the day seven) or on the seventh day (on the day seven, on seven's day) do make sense. Thus Genesis 2:4 "In the day they were created" is the literal translation. If b'yom is an indefinite when, then the seventh day is not a 24 hour day, but an indefinite time, which makes total hash of the seven days of creation. Thank you for the note on Hebrew genitive construction.
I'm going to grant that the Massoretes were probably better placed than any of us to work out what the correct points were. (Was it really 900AD? I thought it was earlier than that.) Anyway, as has been pointed out, reading that verse as b'yom would not make sense, while bayom does.You realize that the vowel points were added in 900 AD and are not part of the inspired text?
Adam's immortality was apparently something that was renewed by eating the tree of life, not because time had not begun. What you say means that God's creation didn't really happen, or take effect, until the fall. When God said 'very good' he was talking about a highly simplified and temporary condition, in your view, and real life in all its wonder and complexity only came about because of sin. I think that has worse theological implications than there being animal death before human sin (it probably wasn't before Satan's sin). Romans 5 only talks about human death. I recognize it doesn't seem as perfect to have animal death as part of the original creation, and that kept me from accepting an old earth for some time, but that is a value judgment we can leave to God. He said it was very good, not perfect, and I believe the natural world is still very good. Besides, Satan may have played a role in marring it even before man came on the scene. A perfect Eden would not have had the serpent in it, for instance.
Hi SkyWriting
I'm not really sure how that's relevant to this thread. There are other live threads where it might be, but this one is really about the meaning of 'yom'.
Roonwit
A 'process' must, I think have time attached. I disagree that time only started when Adam sinned. If it is true to say that Adam was created before Eve, for example, there must be time.
Since God created the sun, moon and stars on day 4 in order to mark the passage of time - seasons, etc - there must have been time before the Fall.
Roonwit
I think you mean 'decay' rather than 'time'. I agree that something must have changed at the Fall, that means that we now tend to decay away rather than be preserved in our created state. But exactly what that was and how it works, I am loathe to speculate too much.
Roonwit
I think we get the information that the earth was rotating so that we got days as we have now. It doesn't seem that that changed.
Roonwit
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