"Oneness" theology and John 5

themuzicman · Dec 20, 2007

John 5:31 "If I testify about Myself, My testimony is not true. 32 "There is another who testifies of Me, and I know that the testimony which He gives about Me is true. 33 "You have sent to John, and he has testified to the truth. 34 "But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved. 35 "He was the lamp that was burning and was shining and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light. 36 "But the testimony which I have is greater than [the testimony of] John; for the works which the Father has given Me to accomplish--the very works that I do--testify about Me, that the Father has sent Me. 37 "And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.

IF Jesus' testimony regarding Himself wouldn't be valid, but the Father testified about Him, and Jesus and the Father are one and the same, then Jesus has born false witness by calling Himself as an invalid witness.

How do you resolve that without having God the Father and God the Son?

Muz

onelamb · Jan 28, 2008

I'm Pentecostal-but not Oneness-I don't think there are any Oneness Pentecostals here.

ladiecyn · Feb 8, 2008

I am a oness pentecostal and the answer to that is prety simple every one agrees that there is one God.

but what we disagree on is this the trinitariens belive God is 3 distinct person and we the oness belive God is only one with diffrent titles and Jobs.

take this example i am a mother who is a daughter who is human. or take this one as well God made us in his image Body mind spirit. i hope you understand and this is how they testify to each other

you must apcept the son to receive the holy spirit to be reconsignised by the father.

i hope i explained it in a simple way !!

DArceri · Mar 5, 2008

ladiecyn said:
take this example i am a mother who is a daughter who is human. or take this one as well God made us in his image Body mind spirit. i hope you understand and this is how they testify to each other

BUT a mother doesn't call herself 'We' or 'Us'.... Or, for that matter, you don't call yourself 'We' or 'Us' when you talk about yourself,... do you?

ALSO,
How do you rectify this verse from Mt 3:16-17

"And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; and behold, a voice from heaven said, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased."

Pistos Ergon · Mar 6, 2008

How do "Oneness" people deal with this:

"He (Son of God) came and took the scroll from the right hand of him (The Father God) who sat on the throne." Rev 5:7

or this:
"I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man (Jesus) was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days (Father God)
And was presented before Him. " Dan 7:13

Pistos Ergon · Mar 20, 2008

Solaris · Apr 11, 2008

I keep the sabbath. I figure being on CF on the Sabbath is OK.

Your quoted instance pretty clearly indicates that There was God, There was the Spirit of God, and there was Jesus.

I see One God whoes spirit decended on the man named Jesus.

There is one God.
YHVH is our God.
YHVH is ONE. ... Moses

ARBITER01 · Apr 12, 2008

Jesus refused to bear witness of Himself but instead relied upon The Father's witness in all things.

What is the problem with that?

RC_NewProtestants · May 1, 2008

ARBITER01 said:
Jesus refused to bear witness of Himself but instead relied upon The Father's witness in all things.

What is the problem with that?

There is nothing really difficult about the text given in the op. The point is that God's Spirit testifies of Christ to the people. It would be of little importance if any man made claims about himself, just saying I am king of America does not convince anyone that that person really is the king of America.

Matthew 16:15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

It is the confirmation of two witness, Jesus statements as well as God that Jesus is who He says He is.

Sp0kenF0r · May 4, 2008

ladiecyn said:
I am a oness pentecostal and the answer to that is prety simple every one agrees that there is one God.

but what we disagree on is this the trinitariens belive God is 3 distinct person and we the oness belive God is only one with diffrent titles and Jobs.

take this example i am a mother who is a daughter who is human. or take this one as well God made us in his image Body mind spirit. i hope you understand and this is how they testify to each other

you must apcept the son to receive the holy spirit to be reconsignised by the father.

i hope i explained it in a simple way !!

No trinitarians do not believe God is distinct 3 different persons we believe he is One God with 3 expressions of himself. Oneness pentecostals think jesus himself is the son, father, and holy spirit together. Oneness theology is not biblical.

Benoni · May 13, 2008

Pistos Ergon said:
How do "Oneness" people deal with this:

"He (Son of God) came and took the scroll from the right hand of him (The Father God) who sat on the throne." Rev 5:7

or this:
"I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man (Jesus) was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days (Father God)
And was presented before Him. " Dan 7:13

I am not an oneness Pentecostal; but I am a monotheists and I am Pentecostal; I am not a Trinitarian; actually I am a Christian Universalist

Rev. 5:7 speaks of the power and authority of God.

Dan 7:13: This verse is written in Aramaic and I find a bit vague???? You are presuming One like the son of man is Jesus, it could be but it is very vague. Also "Ancient of Days " is also very vague. The we in Genesis 3 is the name Elohim or god. Same word is used all though out the Bible including Ps. 82.

There are many names and descriptive titles of God in the scriptures. He is called Counselor, King, Shepherd, Rock, Shield, High Tower, Strong Arm, Saviour, Redeemer, Father, Yahweh, Elohim, El Shaddai, El Elyon, Jesus (Yahshua), and many, many others. Someone has said that there are about two hundred names for God in the Bible! The moment one begins to splinter the absolute wholeness that God is, to examine all His multi-faceted aspects and attributes, the number of splinters are as infinite as God is infinite. Each name of God, as He progressively revealed Himself, was a fresh and fuller revelation of the nature of God. One was a revelation of His Self-existence, another of His might, another was the unveiling of His grace. One revealed something more of His wisdom, another of His holiness, another of His tenderness, another of His exaltation and honor, another of His judgment, and so on.

Psalm 82
1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods. (notice little g or Elohim)
2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6 I have said, Ye are gods (Elohim); and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

Let me ask you a question; God is a spirit not a person or three persons; where do you get in scripture God is a three persons.

Benoni · May 13, 2008

I will add; most oneness penecostals would not debate in an open forum.

plmarquette · Jun 3, 2008

Let's see ....is there a divine being with two hand puppets .... Jesus and Espirtus Sancti?

or do we go to the Lord (jehova singular); your God (elohim-plural); let us, create man in our image; let us go down and confound their languages ....

whether you call it trinity ... soul - 3 parts mind, will, emotions ; man 3 parts soul, spirit, and body ... or the God Head .... or ">bubba and the homies" doesn't matter, there are 3 players .... out of the mouth of 2-3 verses, in context will your words, doctrines, tenants, be established ...

if we spent more time in Matthew 25.32-42 ; and Matthew 10.38-42 we would spend less time on these " quasi religious homelitical hermeneutical sacrodontal efforts in futility ..."

plmarquette · Jun 3, 2008

Let's see ....is there a divine being with two hand puppets .... Jesus and Espirtus Sancti?

or do we go to the Lord (jehova singular); your God (elohim-plural); let us, create man in our image; let us go down and confound their languages ....

whether you call it trinity ... soul - 3 parts mind, will, emotions ; man 3 parts soul, spirit, and body ... or the God Head .... or ">bubba and the homies" doesn't matter, there are 3 players .... out of the mouth of 2-3 verses, in context will your words, doctrines, tenants, be established ...

if we spent more time in Matthew 25.32-42 ; and Matthew 10.38-42 we would spend less time on these " quasi religious homelitical hermeneutical sacrodontal efforts in futility ..."

onwingsaseagles · Jul 30, 2008

themuzicman said:
John 5:31 "If I testify about Myself, My testimony is not true. 32 "There is another who testifies of Me, and I know that the testimony which He gives about Me is true. 33 "You have sent to John, and he has testified to the truth. 34 "But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved. 35 "He was the lamp that was burning and was shining and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light. 36 "But the testimony which I have is greater than [the testimony of] John; for the works which the Father has given Me to accomplish--the very works that I do--testify about Me, that the Father has sent Me. 37 "And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.
IF Jesus' testimony regarding Himself wouldn't be valid, but the Father testified about Him, and Jesus and the Father are one and the same, then Jesus has born false witness by calling Himself as an invalid witness.

How do you resolve that without having God the Father and God the Son?

Muz

It not difficult if you understand the duality of Christ, He was fully God and Fully man.

His deity was the Father and His humanity was the Son the Son and the Father are distinct , but Jesus was both, when Jesus spoke this He was speaking as a man. When God decided to become human He did not become confined to the body of Jesus and stop being the all know omni present God of the universe. When Jesus made this statement He was saying the testimony of the Son was not enough but that God the Father also testifies of Him.

You cannot answer this question, nor understand the nature of Jesus until you understand the duality of Christ, then the answer becomes very simple.

onwingsaseagles · Jul 30, 2008

Benoni said:
I will add; most oneness penecostals would not debate in an open forum.

Why do you think that?

onwingsaseagles · Jul 30, 2008

ladiecyn said:
I am a oness pentecostal and the answer to that is prety simple every one agrees that there is one God.

but what we disagree on is this the trinitariens belive God is 3 distinct person and we the oness belive God is only one with diffrent titles and Jobs.

take this example i am a mother who is a daughter who is human. or take this one as well God made us in his image Body mind spirit. i hope you understand and this is how they testify to each other

you must apcept the son to receive the holy spirit to be reconsignised by the father.

i hope i explained it in a simple way !!

Sp0kenF0r said:
No trinitarians do not believe God is distinct 3 different persons we believe he is One God with 3 expressions of himself. Oneness pentecostals think jesus himself is the son, father, and holy spirit together. Oneness theology is not biblical.

ladiecyn is not really oneness she is a modalist and it seems you spokenfor are not really trinitarian but also a modalist.

Trinitarian do teach that God is three distinct and separate persons, and oneness believe Jesus is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Modalist believe he is one God that has three expressions of himself or has three diferent roles ect...

So although one of you call yourself oneness and the other calls yourself trinitarian you are both by your description of your beliefs are modalist.

I myself am a true oneness believer.

Mathetes the kerux · Jul 31, 2008

Sp0kenF0r said:
No trinitarians do not believe God is distinct 3 different persons we believe he is One God with 3 expressions of himself. Oneness pentecostals think jesus himself is the son, father, and holy spirit together. Oneness theology is not biblical.

Actually you are wrong. The three expressions is Modalism . . . which is actually a Oneness arguement.

Trinitarians actually can be distinguished as holding vehemently to the word "person" in the phrase "3 distinct, co-equal, co-eternal, co-existent persons" . . . because is defines EXACTLY what we have always classically held.

As for the OP . . . it really does shoot down Oneness in that the witnesses are required to be distinct . . .

I like the Johannine passage of "the Father will send ANOTHER comforter . . . the Spirit of Truth" . . . as ANOTHER (allos) means numerically distinct and yet qualitatively the same . . .

Mathetes the kerux · Jul 31, 2008

onwingsaseagles said:
ladiecyn is not really oneness she is a modalist and it seems you spokenfor are not really trinitarian but also a modalist.

Trinitarian do teach that God is three distinct and separate persons, and oneness believe Jesus is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Modalist believe he is one God that has three expressions of himself or has three diferent roles ect...

So although one of you call yourself oneness and the other calls yourself trinitarian you are both by your description of your beliefs are modalist.

I myself am a true oneness believer.

Err . . . nope.

three distinct and separate persons

Separate is NOT a word we would use . . . for then we could be accused of polytheism . . .

Oneness theology IS Modalism . . . they are one and the same.

Mathetes the kerux · Jul 31, 2008

Benoni said:
I am not an oneness Pentecostal; but I am a monotheists and I am Pentecostal; I am not a Trinitarian; actually I am a Christian Universalist

Rev. 5:7 speaks of the power and authority of God.

Dan 7:13: This verse is written in Aramaic and I find a bit vague???? You are presuming One like the son of man is Jesus, it could be but it is very vague. Also "Ancient of Days " is also very vague. The we in Genesis 3 is the name Elohim or god. Same word is used all though out the Bible including Ps. 82.

There are many names and descriptive titles of God in the scriptures. He is called Counselor, King, Shepherd, Rock, Shield, High Tower, Strong Arm, Saviour, Redeemer, Father, Yahweh, Elohim, El Shaddai, El Elyon, Jesus (Yahshua), and many, many others. Someone has said that there are about two hundred names for God in the Bible! The moment one begins to splinter the absolute wholeness that God is, to examine all His multi-faceted aspects and attributes, the number of splinters are as infinite as God is infinite. Each name of God, as He progressively revealed Himself, was a fresh and fuller revelation of the nature of God. One was a revelation of His Self-existence, another of His might, another was the unveiling of His grace. One revealed something more of His wisdom, another of His holiness, another of His tenderness, another of His exaltation and honor, another of His judgment, and so on.

Psalm 82
1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods. (notice little g or Elohim)
2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6 I have said, Ye are gods (Elohim); and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

Let me ask you a question; God is a spirit not a person or three persons; where do you get in scripture God is a three persons.

Person is a term used to express personhood . . . NOT physicality. So that God is spirit AND a person are NOT contradictory concepts.

Like when you say a Dog has a good "personality" . . . you are referring to the psychological makeup of that animal in its interactions with the world.

"person" is only used to delinate the distinct cognition between the three and the self awareness of each. That is all.

So the Scriptures would be ones where God shows intelligence, emotion, will, speech, etc. These things make Him a "person" (not a human and NOT flesh and bone).

Btw, how in the world can you be a Pentecostal and NOT believe in the deity of Christ?

What defines "Pentecostal"?

"Oneness" theology and John 5

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