"Oneness Pentecostals"

AlabamaMan · Jun 7, 2004

I agree with you Jim and JS...I don't like the rule either but at CF you to be able to post in any Christian Only forum you have to agree to the niceen creed, which supports the trinity and those who do not support the trinity are not allowed to post in CO areas. We are not saying they are not christian but for the purposes of posting in CO areas here at CF you have to uphold the Niceen creed.

Jim B · Jun 7, 2004

AlabamaMan said:
I agree with you Jim and JS...I don't like the rule either but at CF you to be able to post in any Christian Only forum you have to agree to the niceen creed, which supports the trinity and those who do not support the trinity are not allowed to post in CO areas. We are not saying they are not christian but for the purposes of posting in CO areas here at CF you have to uphold the Niceen creed.

I know, A-Man. But it's a silly rule (IMHO).

It also points up that the problem with the creeds (i.e., doctrines) of men they are only good at building walls between brothers. The Creeds, if you will notice, got more and more detailed from the Apostles to the Niocene to the Athanasian, as men added their own pet doctrines to the list of essentials. There are historians that view the Nicene Creed (and the whole Council of Nicea) as a political statement used by Constantine to weld church and state, consolidate his power, and anathematize and excommunicate church leaders who would not adopt the established doctrine of the emperor and church at Rome.

There is nothing divine about the Nicene Creed.

As far as Oneness believers are concerned, they may tell you that they believe the Nicene Creed but just not in the same way us Trinitarians believe it. I would like to for someone ask them before we exclude them.

How can we ever come to the unity of spirit without the bond of peace and dialog?

Jim

Miss Shelby · Jun 7, 2004

Jim B said:
It also points up that the problem with the creeds (i.e., doctrines) of men they are only good at building walls between brothers. The Creeds, if you will notice, got more and more detailed from the Apostles to the Niocene to the Athanasian, as men added their own pet doctrines to the list of essentials. There are historians that view the Nicene Creed (and the whole Council of Nicea) as a political statement used by Constantine to weld church and state, consolidate his power, and anathematize and excommunicate church leaders who would not adopt the established doctrine of the emperor and church at Rome.

Is there a reference you can site for this? Because I would be willing to bet that these are non Christian/secular historians who assert this.

Jim B · Jun 7, 2004

Miss Shelby said:
Is there a reference you can site for this? Because I would be willing to bet that these are non Christian/secular historians who assert this.

Well, I do have an undergraduate degree in history, and have taught a course in Church History many years ago at Southern Bible College (PCOG) when it was in Houston, but, hey!, I am certainly no historian.

Are you asking which twist on history I prefer, the secular or the Christian? Both are guilty of interpreting (spinning) history as they would like for it to be. To tell the truth, you need to be skeptical of both. The trouble with interpreting history is that history is not a science it is nothing more than the record of men who, themselves, had an agenda to present to the world. As they say, history is written by the victors of wars. Who knows how the losers would have interpreted things.

Church history was written by the Athanasian faction who won the day at Nicea, and not by Arius and his followers, who lost. Had it been the other way around, I wonder what the Creed would say?

Jim
\o/

Miss Shelby · Jun 7, 2004

Jim B said:
Well, I do have an undergraduate degree in history, and have taught a course in Church History many years ago at Southern Bible College (PCOG) when it was in Houston, but, hey!, I am certainly no historian.

Are you asking which twist on history I prefer, the secular or the Christian spin (both are guilty of interpreting history as they would like for it to be)? To tell the truth, you need to be skeptical of both. The trouble with interpreting history is that history is not a science it is the record of men who, themselves, had an agenda to present to the world and, as they say, history is written by the victors of wars. Who knows how the losers would have interpreted things.

Church history was written by the Athanasian faction who won the day at Nicea, and not by Arius and his followers, who lost. Had it been the other way around, I wonder what the Creed would say?

Jim
\o/

I was just asking for a source. I have heard similar reports, I know there are people who believe this, but I am wondering WHO in the Christian world believes this? I dunno, I'm not a theologian or history buff or anything, but it just sounds more secular to me. That's all.

Michelle

Jim B · Jun 7, 2004

Miss Shelby said:
I was just asking for a source. I have heard similar reports, I know there are people who believe this, but I am wondering WHO in the Christian world believes this? I dunno, I'm not a theologian or history buff or anything, but it just sounds more secular to me. That's all.

Michelle

My knowledge if Constantine is limited, but my impression is that he was more political than Christian. He never was Christian in the same sense we understand it today. He remained a pretty ruthless emporer, even after his conversion to Christianity. Some think his Christian mother Helena was the influence behind his acceptance of the Christian faith, but many wonder if that acceptance was more mental assent than faith. It is a fact that he refused to remove pagan gods from Roman coinage until his death.

At any rate, that God used Constantine greatly is without dispute in my mind. His conversion, whether mental or spiritual, marks one of the great watershed moments in world history, proving Prov. 21.1, The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD ; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.

If I am wrong about him, I will owe him an apology when I get to heaven.

Jim
\o/

NJA · Jun 7, 2004

Colossians 3:17: And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
3John 1:7: Because that for his name's sake they went forth, taking nothing of the Gentiles.

Being baptised or doing anything "in his name" does not mean verbally saying "Jesus" everytime you do something, it means you do it *because of* what God has done. Sadly people have long arguments about words and completely miss the point !

John 17:6: I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world:

. . . . this is talking about the nature of God, they knew his physical name from day one. It's about a relationship, not a badge.

Anyone who has been baptised unto Jesus death because they want His Life has been baptised *in His name*.

Some other scriptures that show what it means to do things *in His name* are:-
John 2:23: Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.

Ac:26:9: I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth.

Do you see my point ?
If you agree, it means that all those people who got themselves re-baptised because they thought the wrong words were spoken as they were baptised before needn't have bothered, they are right with God now !

JesusServant · Jun 7, 2004

Miss Shelby said:
Is there a reference you can site for this? Because I would be willing to bet that these are non Christian/secular historians who assert this.

Gee I wonder why you would hold that opinion on this particular matter.

JesusServant · Jun 7, 2004

AlabamaMan said:
I agree with you Jim and JS...I don't like the rule either but at CF you to be able to post in any Christian Only forum you have to agree to the niceen creed, which supports the trinity and those who do not support the trinity are not allowed to post in CO areas. We are not saying they are not christian but for the purposes of posting in CO areas here at CF you have to uphold the Niceen creed.

Just FYI I wasn't directing my comments at you but at the rule.

If men/women ever really start believing and following the Word churches all around the world will fail and the real Church will begin to heal the nations.

* doesn't know where that came from but knows it is true.

lorilou · Jun 8, 2004

Since I've been in the UPC, all I've ever heard is how we condemn trinitarians, etc. FUNNY...most of the condeming in CF comes from trinitarians towards oneness!!! to say that oneness cannot post b/c of a different interpretation of the Godhead is garbage! basically all this says is "you are not a christian" ! If this is the case, can we need about 10 different posting sites b/c half the trinitarians in CF have beliefs VERY similar to oneness, yet they like to call themselves trinitarian. maybe the oneness pentecostals are so "weird" and such b/c of the everyone else's hostility towards us!

*stepping off soapboxnow

lorilou · Jun 8, 2004

(step 3)
speak like a barbarian (sign to the believer of salvation)

accurate, if you're referring to the baptism of the Holy Spirit, evidenced by speaking in tongues then why are you even posting in charismatic/pentecostal forum?!

DanPonjican · Jun 8, 2004

Just as an educational point to those who don't bother to do some basic research and rather make assumptions:

-The UPC has never endorsed or practiced "snake handling" or drinking poison. Few independent Pentecostal churches in rural areas have been known to practice these rituals.

I have been involved in the UPC for 14+ years of my life and I would have to say in my estimation a great majority of UPC members do believe that heaven will be home to many other people for all denominations. Most also agree that hell will have some UPC'ers unfortunately as well.

crystalpc · Jun 8, 2004

DanPonjican said:
Just as an educational point to those who don't bother to do some basic research and rather make assumptions:

-The UPC has never endorsed or practiced "snake handling" or drinking poison. Few independent Pentecostal churches in rural areas have been known to practice these rituals.

I have been involved in the UPC for 14+ years of my life and I would have to say in my estimation a great majority of UPC members do believe that heaven will be home to many other people for all denominations. Most also agree that hell will have some UPC'ers unfortunately as well.

This is good to know! Thank you.
Do you know anything about the Pentecostal Assemblies of the World? I have requested information from them.

RhetorTheo · Jun 8, 2004

Crystal, AFAIK, the only difference is PAW is black and UPC is white.

Song · Jun 8, 2004

RhetorTheo said:
Crystal, AFAIK, the only difference is PAW is black and UPC is white.

this is a big assumption on your part... like someone mention before you should do research before you make comments like this...

FYI the UPCI is multi-racial you can attend most any church to figure this one out.

crystalpc · Jun 8, 2004

Song said:
this is a big assumption on your part... like someone mention before you should do research before you make comments like this...

FYI the UPCI is multi-racial you can attend most any church to figure this one out.

I am trying to do research on PAW. I have tried to contact some church members. I also see that I made an assumption of snake handling but found that was independant churchs in the south, that UPCI does not have that as a doctrine of faith. That is good to know, as I said I had some relatives who were affiliated with the doctrine of "Jesus only", that was all I knew on the subject.

crystalpc · Jun 8, 2004

RhetorTheo said:
Crystal, AFAIK, the only difference is PAW is black and UPC is white.

I was saved in a Church of God cleveland assembly, at the time it was a white church. They had black membership, through the Church of God in Christ, that was a long time ago, now both churches have black and white parishoners.
I was interested in PAW because there is a muslim who is saying that he was a minister in the church, and is winning converts to islam in their name. I wanted to know about his character, whether he left as a member in good standing. Most Jesus Only people I know would be horrified to know someone was doing this..

Starcrystal · Jun 8, 2004

I don't think UPC or Oneness Pentecostals should be banned from C.O. threads. The Nicene creed upholds what they beleive, as well as what Trinitarians beleive. The creed itself never in any place says "God in 3 persons" That is an assumption many make of the wording, but you can also view the wording as Oneness doctrine.

I think the main point in the Nicene creed is the DEITY of Christ, which both Trinitarians and Oneness beleive. If someone were to claim to be a pentecostal and not beleive Christ is God in the flesh, then that goes against the Nicene creed. There is such a church because I know of at least one member on another thread that has said this. I had never heard of it before.

Anyone who beleives Christ is Lord ~ meaning God incarnate, should be considered a beleiver. What does the Word say in Romans? Confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus (implying his deity) and beleive in your heart God raised him from the dead and you shall be saved.

Anyone who attacks Oneness and calls them non-Christian, or anyone who attacks Trinitarians and calls them non-Christian need to really study the Word about what the requirements for salvation/being born again are.

Starcrystal · Jun 8, 2004

Nicene Creed (portion relavent to discussion)

Nicene Creed

We believe in (Romans 10: 8-10; 1 John 4: 15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6: 4, Ephesians 4: 6)
Father (Matthew 6: 9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6: 3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1: 1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1: 15-16)

And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11: 17)
Son of God, (Mathew 14: 33; 16: 16)
Only-Begotten, (John 1: 18; 3: 16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1: 2)
Light from Light; (Psalm 27: 1; John 8: 12; Matthew 17: 2,5)
True God from True God; (John 17: 1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1: 18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10: 30)
through whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1: 1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1 Timothy 2: 4-5)
came down from heaven, (John 6: 33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary (Luke 1: 35)
and became man. (John 1: 14)
And He was crucified for us (Mark 15: 25; 1 Corinthians 15: 3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19: 6)
suffered, (Mark 8: 31)
and was buried. (Luke 23: 53; 1 Corinthians 15: 4)
And on the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures, (Luke 24: 1 1 Corinthians 15: 4)
and ascended into heaven, (Luke 24: 51; Acts 1: 10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father; (Mark 16: 19; Acts 7: 55)
and He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24: 27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10: 42; 2 Timothy 4: 1)
Whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1: 11)

And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14: 26)
Lord, (Acts 5: 3-4)
Giver of Life, (Genesis 1: 2)
Who proceeds from the Father [and the Son]; (John 15: 26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3: 16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19: 20; Ezekiel 11: 5,13)

Note first that "3 persons" is never mentioned. Note ONE God, ONE Lord Jesus Christ, TRUE GOD FROM TRUE GOD, of ONE ESSENCE WITH THE FATHER, Holy Spirit, LORD, who procedes from the FATHER AND THE SON.

It actually takes more to extrude the strictest Trinitarian concept of 3 persons than it does to find a Oneness in this creed! Remember Paul writing to the Corinthians and telling them he couldn't be present bodily, but was present in spirit? Paul wasn't 2 or 3 separate people, he was one person.

Persons who have had near death experiences have reported their spirit leaving their physical body, and some have even been shown visions from God in this state. They are still one person, although their spirit is separated from their body. They are 2 and yet still one!

God manifests in Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and the 3 can appear separately and individually, yet all is ONE GOD. Where are the 3 persons? We are talking about the all powerful Creator, a SPIRIT according to John 4, manifest physically in the incarnate Christ, while still maintaining omnipresence and omnipotence as Father and Holy Spirit in the spiritual realm. Appearing separate but not separate. One God!

So if someone beleives God is 3 "persons" or if God is one person with 3 manifestations, BOTH are supported by the Nicene creed! You really have to read something into it thats not there to say God is deffinitely 3 persons, and you also have to read into it something thats not there to say God manifest in consecutive stages as some Oneness teachers say. Both are extremes. I beleive the truth lies in both, and the answer cuts right down the middle.

RhetorTheo · Jun 9, 2004

Song said:
this is a big assumption on your part... like someone mention before you should do research before you make comments like this...

FYI the UPCI is multi-racial you can attend most any church to figure this one out.

Yes, they are both technically multi-racial, but the racial makeup is the difference. I've been to both of their official web sites and I have relatives who are UPC and are familiar with PAW. They are both oneness pentecostals.

"Oneness Pentecostals"

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