One horrendous doctrine

rockytrails · Jan 5, 2008

i guess this is the place for debate.
now the reformed love to use their reason so let me put this very reasonble

the calvanist would have us believe the very worst thing about God . that He mainly created "most "people for the very specific purpose of being able to punish them for ever in Hell . in fact he predestined most people to unbelief in Jesus so he could punish them eternaly in hell.

ah what a fine and wonderful God that would be!

Elderone · Jan 5, 2008

rockytrails said:
i guess this is the place for debate.
now the reformed love to use their reason so let me put this very reasonble

the calvanist would have us believe the very worst thing about God . that He mainly created "most "people for the very specific purpose of being able to punish them for ever in Hell . in fact he predestined most people to unbelief in Jesus so he could punish them eternaly in hell.

ah what a fine and wonderful God that would be!

You are assuming that we, the created, are able to understand God fully. How egotistical.

He said:

Isa 55:9 For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Here are some other passages to mull over:

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Pro 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.

BBAS 64 · Jan 6, 2008

rockytrails said:
as you asume you know God predestined people to hell .
but the truth is.

the corupt will of man rejected Gods grace . No where does the bible say God made his grace irrisistable as the calvanist assumes .

scripture says

Matt. 23:27,
"How often would I have gathered you together, and ye would
not."

yes it is a dangerous thing to keep rejecting Gods grace .
God is no one to disrespect and who is able to blame him for
hardening such a rejecting heart .
He will have mercy on who he will have mercy on . He is God

why some saved and not the others?

but the truth is
http://www.angelfire.com/ny4/djw/lutherantheology.whysome.html

Good Day, Rockytrails

If you are going to quote sripture, please quote it correctly....

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

As to your question consider Luther, as you claim to be one:

Commentary on Romans, All things whatever arise from, and depend on, the divine appointment; whereby it was foreordained who should receive the word of life, and who should disbelieve it; who should be delivered from their sins, and who should be hardened in them; and who should be justified and who should be condemned.

He foreordained who shoukd receive it and who should not.

In Him,

Bill

rockytrails · Jan 6, 2008

BBAS 64 said:
Good Day, Rockytrails

If you are going to quote sripture, please quote it correctly....

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

As to your question consider Luther, as you claim to be one:

Commentary on Romans, All things whatever arise from, and depend on, the divine appointment; whereby it was foreordained who should receive the word of life, and who should disbelieve it; who should be delivered from their sins, and who should be hardened in them; and who should be justified and who should be condemned.

He foreordained who shoukd receive it and who should not.

In Him,

Bill

[/quote/)

I did not type out the complete verse I did not think i needed to but thanks for your effort.Lutherans often take forgranted that the reader would already know the verse

why not look it up also in the Niv translation . Both the niv and kjv chief translators or editors were reformed protestant not lutheran .

On the luther quote on Romans . Our study bibles contains his quote on romans .
and what you wrote does not agree with either Luther Works 35:365 OR Lw 35:380.
That does not mean that He did not write this quote you gave for romans . But it does mean like the quote our pastors chose it is not his complete work on Romans .
So I can not comment on it . since a lot of people take his quote's out of context.

yet

The complete verse you gave is clear enough that even a calvanist must yield to it . Look and stare and say to himself I must believe what it say's.

You post a comentary by a reformed protestant. why would you need to do that when they weere the translators? Did they really do that Lousy a Job at translating?
I don't think so their translation agrees with our pastor's commentary. Much better than the one you gave.
Look and see complete comentary of the holy bible http://www.kretzmannproject.org/

And Ye would not! if God made his grace irrisisatable that could not be .!!!!! ARE YOU SURE YOUR REFORMED TRANSLATORS TRANSLATED tHE kjv CORRECT???

BBAS 64 · Jan 6, 2008

rockytrails said:
now dear sir
i am not as stupid as you thi nk

The king James version and the Niv version of the bible are very accurate translation's and can properly be called the word of God .But in them we are not surprised to find verses with a refomed bias. As we know who were the chief translators.

Thats why all our wels pastors must take the biblical languages so they can go back to the biblical language
when we find such Bias in a passage.

Good day, Rockytrails

Good then please note:

(ALT) "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one killing the prophets and stoning the ones having been sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her own chickens under the wings, and you did not want to!

(ASV) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

(Bishops) O Hierusalem, Hierusalem, thou that kyllest the prophetes, and stonest them which are sent vnto thee: Howe often woulde I haue gathered thy chyldren together, euen as the henne gathereth her chickens vnder her wynges, and ye woulde not?

(ESV)"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!

(GB) Hierusalem, Hierusalem, which killest the Prophets, and stonest them which are sent to thee, how often would I haue gathered thy children together, as the henne gathereth her chickins vnder her wings, and ye would not!
(GNT)ierousalhm ierousalhm h bapoktenousa tsaapokteinousa touv profhtav kai liqobolousa touv apestalmenouv prov authn posakiv hqelhsa episunagagein ta tekna sou on tropon tsbepisunagei orniv aepisunagei ta nossia aauthv tsbeauthv upo tav pterugav kai ouk hqelhsate
(HCSB)"Jerusalem, Jerusalem! The city who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her. How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, yet you were not willing!

(KJVA) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

(NASB) "(42) Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who (43) kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, (44) the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

(RSVA) "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!

(Vulgate) Hierusalem Hierusalem quae occidis prophetas et lapidas eos qui ad te missi sunt quotiens volui congregare filios tuos quemadmodum gallina congregat pullos suos sub alas et noluisti

(YLT) `Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that art killing the prophets, and stoning those sent unto thee, how often did I will to gather thy children together, as a hen doth gather her own chickens under the wings, and ye did not will.

.

Would you please seeing you are apealing to the Greek, translate the greek here:

(GNT)ierousalhm ierousalhm h bapoktenousa tsaapokteinousa touv profhtav kai liqobolousa touv apestalmenouv prov authn posakiv hqelhsa episunagagein ta tekna sou on tropon tsbepisunagei orniv aepisunagei ta nossia aauthv tsbeauthv upo tav pterugav kai ouk hqelhsate

If you feel you have a wels pastor's writting who has another plese post it....

Hint (there are none), translate the greek please parse if you like.

In Him,

Bill

heymikey80 · Jan 6, 2008

rockytrails said:
the corupt will of man rejected Gods grace . No where does the bible say God made his grace irrisistable as the calvanist assumes .

The effectual call as it's called in Calvinism is directly stated in Scripture:

Those he called, he justified. Rom 8:30

Or maybe from what Jesus said

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. ... And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. ... No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. Jn 6:37,39,40,44

bradfordl · Jan 6, 2008

You post a comentary by a reformed protestant. why would you need to do that when they weere the translators? Did they really do that Lousy a Job at translating?

That reformed protestant was Luther, neighbor.

BBAS 64 · Jan 6, 2008

bradfordl said:
That reformed protestant was Luther, neighbor.

Good Day, Bradford

Seems our new "Lutheran" buddy missed that....

Seems Rocky also likes to change posts after they have been responed to.

Good Day, Rocky

Rocky are you going to translate the greek?

Not only should never assume, but if you are going to quote scripture please quote the whole verse it is really not that hard, that will stop you from misquoting it, it also means we will not have to correct you of your misuse and misquotes of the Scripture.

We are strict Sola Scriptura types here.

In Him,

Bill

MeanieCalvinist · Jan 7, 2008

Hello,

I have read most of this thread and have seen the same rhetoric concerning the Decrees of God by those that oppose the Doctrines of Grace in a multitude of forums. It seems as though they believe by using such terminology as "Eternal Torture"(which no Reformer uses), when describing God's Holy justice being poured out upon those who rebel against Him, they will get a charge out of us.

I encourage those who oppose to have enough integrity to understand what it is we really believe when we discuss the Soverneigty of God in election and reprobation. A great place to start would be reading A.W. Pink.(free online).

Here is the link below.

http://www.sovereign-grace.com/pink/0-index.htm

Now in addressing the topic- at- hand I have not seen a better defense for the Sovereigty of God in the Reprobation of Sinner's than in the 5th chapter of this work published by Pink, published by Baker Publishing, linked below.

http://www.sovereign-grace.com/pink/chapter05.htm

"Behold therefore the goodness and the severity of God" Rom. 11:22.

Please take the time to read A. W. Pink in this 5th Chapter and share your thoughts.

Reformationist · Jan 7, 2008

rockytrails said:
i guess this is the place for debate.

This is the place for debate, not the place for insults. Please refrain from such behavior as it does nothing to endear support or patience for your view.

now the reformed love to use their reason so let me put this very reasonble

the calvanist would have us believe the very worst thing about God . that He mainly created "most "people for the very specific purpose of being able to punish them for ever in Hell . in fact he predestined most people to unbelief in Jesus so he could punish them eternaly in hell.

ah what a fine and wonderful God that would be!

Please be so kind as to cite the reformed source you reference which submits a quantifiable estimate of the redeemed or the lost, i.e., "most."

God bless

ReformedChapin · Jan 10, 2008

Reformationist said:
This is the place for debate, not the place for insults. Please refrain from such behavior as it does nothing to endear support or patience for your view.

Please be so kind as to cite the reformed source you reference which submits a quantifiable estimate of the redeemed or the lost, i.e., "most."

God bless

I think his deduction is based on his observation of peoples rejections of Christ. Lets face it, even in "christian countries" the level of "true belief" is low.

thelasttrumpet · Jan 14, 2008

He will save for Himself the exact number He determined before creation to glorify Himself in mercy, and He will send to hell the exact number He determined at the same time to glorify Himself in justice...You deserve nothing from God but the flames of eternal hell, and you have deserved that from the moment you were born.

As a former Calvinist, I agree that some of the doctrines that set calvinism apart from other Christian theologies are indeed horrendous. I am ashamed to think that I ever believed anything resembling what I have quoted above, which is what someone said earlier in this thread. I can't help thinking how offensive such words ought to be to anyone made in the image of God. What could be more God-dishonoring than the thought of the endless misery of any creature bearing his divine image? For all of you John Piper fans, try to reconcile the above quotation with the following words:

"God is MOST GLORIFIED in us when we are MOST SATISFIED in him."

God bless,
Aaron

Reformationist · Jan 16, 2008

thelasttrumpet said:
As a former Calvinist, I agree that some of the doctrines that set calvinism apart from other Christian theologies are indeed horrendous. I am ashamed to think that I ever believed anything resembling what I have quoted above, which is what someone said earlier in this thread. I can't help thinking how offensive such words ought to be to anyone made in the image of God. What could be more God-dishonoring than the thought of the endless misery of any creature bearing his divine image? For all of you John Piper fans, try to reconcile the above quotation with the following words:

"God is MOST GLORIFIED in us when we are MOST SATISFIED in him."

God bless,
Aaron

Well Aaron, if you have traded the truth for a lie then it is likely because your esteem for the creation has come to supercede the value you place on God's glory. Don't worry though. There are multitudes of people who, like you, love to view the Gospel as a vindication of their inherent virtue rather than acknowledging that it is, in fact, a revelation of God's mercy towards the undeserving.

Words like "justice" have no meaning in the anthropocentric beliefs of those who reject the doctrines of grace as they don't actually see salvation as the product of God's grace, no matter how much they proclaim it to be so.

Well, at least you have revealed yourself for what you are and in doing so you help equip us in dealing with you in the most fruitful way possible, through prayer.

God bless

thelasttrumpet · Jan 17, 2008

Well Aaron, if you have traded the truth for a lie then it is likely because your esteem for the creation has come to supercede the value you place on God's glory. Don't worry though. There are multitudes of people who, like you, love to view the Gospel as a vindication of their inherent virtue rather than acknowledging that it is, in fact, a revelation of God's mercy towards the undeserving.

Words like "justice" have no meaning in the anthropocentric beliefs of those who reject the doctrines of grace as they don't actually see salvation as the product of God's grace, no matter how much they proclaim it to be so.

Well, at least you have revealed yourself for what you are and in doing so you help equip us in dealing with you in the most fruitful way possible, through prayer.

God bless

On the contrary, I place a supreme value on God's glory (the "manifold beauty of His perfections" - Piper), and it is because of this that I consider it a God-dishonoring doctrine which says that multitudes of God's image-bearers will never reflect back His glory in being "most satisfied" in Him.

I do not, in fact, believe in the "inherent virtue" of man. I believe that we are nothing apart from our Creator. All the worth and value we posses is derived from God Himself, and thus all glory goes to Him alone. Any worth and value we possess is due soley to the fact that we bear His divine image. He is like the Sun, and we are but the moons that reflect His light. But the fact that you seem to place so little value on the image of God that we bear tells me you place little value on God Himself, no matter how much you may claim otherwise.

You seem to think that "grace" isn't "grace" unless it is shown against the backdrop of post-mortem, endless torment. If you didn't believe God had exposed mankind to this nightmarish fate, you would not even see God's love for you as "grace." But such a punishment is not even revealed in scripture. It's uninspired nonsense; the doctrine simply cannot be substantiated with scripture. So I'm afraid that you are the one not acquainted with God's grace. And as for justice, I believe no more and no less than what the Bible says about it. The fact that you see endless suffering as being a "just punishment" for sin shows how perverted and unscriptural your understanding of true justice is.

I will be praying for you as well, my friend.
Aaron

GrinningDwarf · Jan 17, 2008

thelasttrumpet said:
But such a punishment is not even revealed in scripture.

Actually...it is. It's been demonstrated to you again and again, but you insist upon explaining it away.

thelasttrumpet · Jan 17, 2008

Actually...it is. It's been demonstrated to you again and again, but you insist upon explaining it away.

How can I "explain away" something that's not even there? Neither "Mikey" nor "Boxmaker" has demonstrated that the Bible teaches endless punishment after death. Every scriptural example they've given of anyone experiencing (or being exposed to) some kind of punishment or loss makes perfect sense as pertaining to this life alone. The continued unjustified assumption has been that the punishment or loss is endless and post-mortem in nature. I've asked again and again that this be proven, and all they do is beg the question (or baselessly assert that I'm simply "explaining it all away").

GrinningDwarf · Jan 17, 2008

thelasttrumpet said:
Every scriptural example they've given of anyone experiencing (or being exposed to) some kind of punishment or loss makes perfect sense as pertaining to this life alone.

Only to a universalist. Everyone else understands it the way it was written. As has been demonstrated to you.

thelasttrumpet · Jan 19, 2008

Only to a universalist. Everyone else understands it the way it was written. As has been demonstrated to you.

If you don't think I understand something "the way it was written," why don't you demonstrate how I've misunderstood it. You're more than welcome to enter the debate.

GrinningDwarf · Jan 19, 2008

thelasttrumpet said:
If you don't think I understand something "the way it was written," why don't you demonstrate how I've misunderstood it. You're more than welcome to enter the debate.

Because I've seen several others demonstrate it to you in pretty simple and straightforward terms. You don't get it because you don't want to get it.

Reformationist · Jan 20, 2008

One horrendous doctrine

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