Once saved

It is very simple, you are all called by God but only a few will answer and strive until the end of the race (which is our fleshly-worldly life). As to those who need a particular church to make them feel saved I will leave to them and God.

If any doubt your salvation and eternal place of rest then you need to pray, study, search and ask and you will be given the answers. They may include something you have to do or give up.

once saved always saved I say not always read 2peter 2:19-22

19. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 20. For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

The KEY issue of 2 Pt. 2:19-22 is "the latter end is worse ... than the beginning ..."

There are two 'states' under discussion. The first state is the one prior to conversion, the second is the state subsequent to conversion. Contrasting these states, Peter says the last state (the one subsequent to conversion) is a worse condition or state than the original state (the one prior to conversion).

This principle is usually dismissed by making a distinction of spiritual and physical suffering, temporal and eternal, etc. The writer makes no such distinction but to say it is a 'worse' condition to be saved and to 'turn' back than it is to be lost (eternally damned) and ignorant.

The intent of this passage is most striking, to me. Why is Peter stressing such an ominous admonition? This warning is intended to help encourage disciples of Jesus to 'keep the faith' and to 'finish the race.' It resonates with Jesus' words, "Whoever endures to the end, the same shall be saved."

Free moral agency means we are able, responsible and accountable for our decisions, attitudes and behavior, i.e. 'free will.'

Just as a contrite surrender can transform one's position spiritually, one is also empowered to make a decision to revert. Salvation does not cancel the principle of free moral agency.

JesusnamefollowerofChrist said:

once saved always saved I say not always read 2peter 2:19-22

19. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 20. For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

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I must add this Scripture to my database!

rexboykin said:

The KEY issue of 2 Pt. 2:19-22 is "the latter end is worse ... than the beginning ..."

There are two 'states' under discussion. The first state is the one prior to conversion, the second is the state subsequent to conversion. Contrasting these states, Peter says the last state (the one subsequent to conversion) is a worse condition or state than the original state (the one prior to conversion).

This principle is usually dismissed by making a distinction of spiritual and physical suffering, temporal and eternal, etc. The writer makes no such distinction but to say it is a 'worse' condition to be saved and to 'turn' back than it is to be lost (eternally damned) and ignorant.

The intent of this passage is most striking, to me. Why is Peter stressing such an ominous admonition? This warning is intended to help encourage disciples of Jesus to 'keep the faith' and to 'finish the race.' It resonates with Jesus' words, "Whoever endures to the end, the same shall be saved."

Free moral agency means we are able, responsible and accountable for our decisions, attitudes and behavior, i.e. 'free will.'

Just as a contrite surrender can transform one's position spiritually, one is also empowered to make a decision to revert. Salvation does not cancel the principle of free moral agency.

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Excellent explanation!

It is important to note, "escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ", which brings to mind 1 Tim. 2:4 and 2 Tim. 2:25, indicating that these were genuinely saved. They were genuine believers, not people never really belonging to God.

this too is an intresting topic,i was told that moses not being allowed in the promised land showed that you can be removed from the book of life ie being saved,yet now i am taught that by Gods grace this is not the case unless i deliberately and willfully turn against God.

fishfish said:

this too is an intresting topic,i was told that moses not being allowed in the promised land showed that you can be removed from the book of life ie being saved,yet now i am taught that by Gods grace this is not the case unless i deliberately and willfully turn against God.

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Don't forget the transfiguration experience in which Moses is present with Jesus, Peter, James and John on the mountain. He represents 'the law' as the prophet represents the rest of the 'Old Covenant' or testament.

Moses did not enter the 'promised land' living but he is 'with' God, even now.

God desires all people to be saved and none to be lost. God grants humans 'free will' or the ability to chose their eternal destiny.

The Hebrew letter is filled with admonitions to 'Christians' to remain faithful or to continue in the faith. Check out Hebrews 6:1-ff as well as Heb 10:24-26.

These two verses are clear in my understanding.

fishfish said:

this too is an intresting topic,i was told that moses not being allowed in the promised land showed that you can be removed from the book of life ie being saved,yet now i am taught that by Gods grace this is not the case unless i deliberately and willfully turn against God.

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rexboykin said:

Don't forget the transfiguration experience in which Moses is present with Jesus, Peter, James and John on the mountain. He represents 'the law' as the prophet represents the rest of the 'Old Covenant' or testament.

Moses did not enter the 'promised land' living but he is 'with' God, even now.

God desires all people to be saved and none to be lost. God grants humans 'free will' or the ability to chose their eternal destiny.

The Hebrew letter is filled with admonitions to 'Christians' to remain faithful or to continue in the faith. Check out Hebrews 6:1-ff as well as Heb 10:24-26.

These two verses are clear in my understanding.

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While I disagree that we always have free will, your edifying posts (particularly, the reference to the book of life) have brought to my memory Rev. 3:5. And quoted in context, it makes perfect sense:

Rev. 3:3-5 (NASB) 'So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you. But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

(Codex Sinaiticus) Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and watch and repent. If therefore thou wilt not be wakeful, I will come as a thief, and thou shalt not know at what hour I will come upon thee. But thou hast a few names in Sardis who have not defiled their garments, and they shall walk with me in white, for they are worthy. He that overcomes, he shall be clothed in white raiment, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.

Scripture can't be more clear than this.

If I'm not mistaken, garments refers to 2 Cor. 5:17: Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

Man is already defiled. How can man be defiled if he's already defiled? Unless he is already clean.

Peter was clean, because of Jesus' words (John 15:3) and because Jesus washed him entirely (John 13:8-10). But later, he denied knowing Jesus (consider Matthew 10:33). And he earnestly repented when he realized this (it's implied that he repented).

If he didn't repent, surely he would have died as Judas did. Consider Luke 13:1-5 and 2 Cor. 7:10.

So then, if a saved person neglects repentance, there is no eternal salvation for him. Once saved always saved is not always true. It can only be true when the person has God's intervention (1 John 5:18).

My thoughts:

Firstly, what I think must be stated absolutely is that "getting to heaven" isn't the emphasis of salvation. It's our being reconciled to God, in the West we speak of Justification, Sanctification and Glorification while in the East they speak of Theosis. And it's a process. In the West the fundamental difference between Protestantism and Catholicism is whether or not Justification and Sanctification are a concurrent process (as the Catholic position says) or distinct, namely Justification is a definitive act of God whereas Sanctification is the life-long process (historic Protestant position).

Secondly, I am deeply uncomfortable with any idea of hanging threat of hell if we commit one or two many mishaps. God doesn't have a checklist, He is a loving and merciful Father who loves us with wild abandon demonstrated in the Person of His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, who was crucified for our sake and who rose from the dead defeating the power of sin, death and hell.

Thirdly, salvation is not a contract. When God by His unconditional mercy reaches down and claims us as His own and adopts and makes us children by His grace, it is the act of a loving and compassionate God. It is not the act of a Lawyer writing out a legal contract. As in any relationship it requires work, and we can walk away from the God who loves us. He will by no means refuse us or reject us, but we can walk away from Him.

So no, if we are to think of things as though God is somehow contractually obligated to grant us the glories of heaven because we're "saved" then we turn the Costly Grace of God into cheap grace. And on the other hand if we imagine that God is a demanding parole officer ticking off a list everytime we get things right and everytime we get things wrong we are just as erring in our view of God. This is not the God who in His great and selfless love for the whole world sent His Son to die for us all and who has mercy upon all.

Rather, we have confidence in God because of His great grace and promises that He loves and holds onto us sinners. We will mess up, we will screw up, we won't get things right and we will be wrong. But it's precisely for us screwed up, messed up, wrong and utterly broken and wrecked sinful people that He came down to us in Christ our Lord to save and rescue us. And yes, we can walk away, and yes we do need to die daily in repentance, but YES! there is a God and Father who runs to embrace His wayward sons and daughters! We have a Good Shepherd in Christ who searches high and low for one lost little lamb.

-CryptoLutheran

CryptoLutheran said:

My thoughts:

Firstly, what I think must be stated absolutely is that "getting to heaven" isn't the emphasis of salvation. It's our being reconciled to God, in the West we speak of Justification, Sanctification and Glorification while in the East they speak of Theosis. And it's a process. In the West the fundamental difference between Protestantism and Catholicism is whether or not Justification and Sanctification are a concurrent process (as the Catholic position says) or distinct, namely Justification is a definitive act of God whereas Sanctification is the life-long process (historic Protestant position).

Secondly, I am deeply uncomfortable with any idea of hanging threat of hell if we commit one or two many mishaps. God doesn't have a checklist, He is a loving and merciful Father who loves us with wild abandon demonstrated in the Person of His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, who was crucified for our sake and who rose from the dead defeating the power of sin, death and hell.

Thirdly, salvation is not a contract. When God by His unconditional mercy reaches down and claims us as His own and adopts and makes us children by His grace, it is the act of a loving and compassionate God. It is not the act of a Lawyer writing out a legal contract. As in any relationship it requires work, and we can walk away from the God who loves us. He will by no means refuse us or reject us, but we can walk away from Him.

So no, if we are to think of things as though God is somehow contractually obligated to grant us the glories of heaven because we're "saved" then we turn the Costly Grace of God into cheap grace. And on the other hand if we imagine that God is a demanding parole officer ticking off a list everytime we get things right and everytime we get things wrong we are just as erring in our view of God. This is not the God who in His great and selfless love for the whole world sent His Son to die for us all and who has mercy upon all.

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Theosis? What is this Theosis?

And yes, I agree that it's a process. Saved status is only secured at a person's last moments, if not after death.

Hell is only for those who disobey Him (Matt. 18:34-35) and those who do not know Him (or more specifically, refuse to know Him. This does not necessarily include ignorance).

Yes, salvation is unconditional, but God's intervention (Jeremiah 18:7-10, 2 Chronicles 7:13-14) and God's love (Rom. 14:21, 23) can be conditional. Yes, it's not a contract, but a relationship and the only way a man can lose his salvation is if he leaves God.

Theosis.

-CryptoLUtheran

I was raised SBC, member 45 years. Know all the verses cause I wrestled with the doctrine too. Long story short, they will ignore parts of the scripture, way I saw it. One who is walking in Christ can claim all the secure promises. Those who are not have warnings given they need to heed. I read an 18 page document from a osas person, explaining why "bought" did not mean bought, in one verse of scripture, and only one. 2nd Pet. 2:1. Yes, I am aware that some will still believe one such as this is saved, and will be destroyed only in flesh. That is assuming what is not declared in that chapter. I would rather be obedient, and faithful. Why trample on grace, or the precious blood of Christ, as one such as described in that chapter, huh?

Then there is "twice-dead", Jude verse 12. Now unless one changes the meaning of that word, and there is a lot of that going on, it means precisely what it says. Jude also specifically says that God 'saved' the people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those in unbelief, Jude verse 5. I also realize that osas will say destroyed does not mean condemn to hell, just destroyed in flesh, but again I would rather be found obedient, and faithful, again, why trample on grace, and the blood that cleansed us? I believe we should heed the warnings, ourselves, and those we may discuss with, instead of assuming what the text does not specifically say. Again, those who are obedient and faithful, have nothing at all to fear.

Finally, what clinches it for me, is 2nd Peter 3:9. And also a couple of other verses that tell us simply and plainly what is Gods will. God is "not willing that any should perish". Clearly says that. Others will believe that God does indeed will that some perish, they are not chosen, according to that doctrine. I believe this verse told clearly that God is not willing, that any should perish. He clearly gives those who do, choice to accept and obey, or choice not to. Pharoah mocked and lied to stop the plagues time and again. Yes, God knew He would, but Pharoah also exercised choice, and God heeded his lies many times, stopping some of those plagues. Esau cared more about his belly, than his birthright, and scripture says that others will as well. That is what I see, and believe. I have good christian friends on both sides of the issue. It finally just came down to accepting what all the verses say, for me.

This is not 'works', for salvation, either, it is just doing what we are created "unto", if we are truly seeking to do Gods will. Eph 2:10, "unto good works". Also 1st Thess. 4:3, "For this is the will of God, your sanctification", and 1st Thess. 5:23, "wholly" or completely. Scripture is plain what God 'will's. The failure is mans, not Gods. None will have excuse. The offer is for all. Anyhow, that is where I'm at regarding the subject. But it will be discussed to and fro till that awesome day. I don't wanna be ashamed then, or double-minded now. Neither would be of God. What is correct about osas, when we enter into glory, it will surely be true!

Manna House Ministries said:

A very simple yet hugely controversial topic.Once we have accepted Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. Are we automatically destined for Heaven?

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Yes and no. It doesn't mean we are destined to go straight to heaven without experiencing judgment after the 2nd resurrection.

Paul Himself stated: 1 Cor 9:27
But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Only the elect will be in the Kingdom reigning with Christ and judging the world.

Those who are not faithful to the end, will be judged with the rest of the world and corrected in judgment which results in every knee bowing and confessing Christ is Lord to the glory of the Father.

Once Christ has put all under subjection to him, then God will be all in all!
1 Cor 15:24

Cheers,
Zac