I have no idea how a soul is created, and how it becomes associated with a fetus (very likely even the zygote). But---it is my observation from Scripture, that God has set into motion certain "natural laws". One of these laws was spoken by Noah: "Go forth and multiply, and replenish the Earth."Unless you can come up with a reason that God was FORCED to create someone with these traits and forseen decisions. Outside of you coming up with one of those, you are left with the conclusion that everything you say, do and feel is ultimately owing to God's sovereign ordination.
Jesus prayed for Peter, "that his faith not fail". Lk22:32 Why do you suppose Jesus did that? Jesus was GOD, so if Peter had been predestined, surely Jesus would have KNOWN that Peter's faith COULD not fail. Or was Jesus simply being obtuse? Maybe rhetorical?You haven't given a shred of evidence that God holds this so-called "Free Will" in the esteem that you claim. You've made pious assertions about it, but shown nothing except that you really, really want it to be true.
How have you shown this? Please show this in Scripture, and please be specific...On the other hand, I have shown that God is omnipotent, omniscient and our Creator, and that as such, He had absolute control over whom He created. And that X number are born with one eternal destiny, and Y with another. (forgive me, in mathematics different variables are required unless the quantities are equal... )
Then you believe, by definition, that satan was predestined to rebel. This contradicts God's nature---because He is PERFECT, and PERFECTLY JUST, God is constrained to allow each person to be condemned on their own blame---and this includes the angels. "JUST" means "right, fair, deserved". For GOD to have decided that a man, or a demon, would be assigned to Hell apart from his/its own choice can NEVER be called "right, fair, deserved".Also, you have made no attempt to refute that the Fall was ordained. Do you have any response of any kind to this? Or do you think God had his arm somehow twisted into creating Adam? Was there some cosmic force pressing in upon God causing Him to create a man whom He knew would be the secondary cause of billions of people going to Hell?
And here I thought we were responding with no-tapdancing-at-all. But, then, your questions:Now please, with a minimum of tap-dancing:
Did God HAVE to create Adam, or could He have created someone whose free and willing obedience was foreseen just as clearly as Adam's free and willing disobedience?
Originally posted by SemperReformanda
seebs-
You have been assiduous about not answering me on the Fall. Do you think now that I've asked about 4 times you could answer me, please? Since the Fall is pretty much one of the 2 central cruxes of human history, God's ordination or non-ordination of it seems significant somehow.
Was God bound and obligated to create a representative for our entire race whom He knew invariably would rebel and Fall, or did He freely CHOOSE to create such a man. Could God have created someone different, whom He foresaw NOT Falling of His own free will.
Or was there just this one person in the inifinitely creative mind of the Creator. That seems to me to be a bit of a stretch, since I in my finitude can imagine a host of people.
It'll be nice to hear from you on this.
Originally posted by SemperReformanda
Did God HAVE to create Adam, or could He have created someone whose free and willing obedience was foreseen just as clearly as Adam's free and willing disobedience?
Originally posted by SemperReformanda
Now with seebs-
So, I don't really *know* about the fall. Maybe it's an allegory, to explain to us why sin is a problem. Maybe it's a literal thing which happened.
While I find your honesty refreshing, you've also demonstrated the inevitable result of man-centered theology. Once we demote God, the truth and sufficiency of His Word follows closely and inevitably behind.
So the Fall might be allegorical, rather than literal? Now that you've abandoned the Bible as literal truth, we have little left to say to one another. Without an objective standard of truth, the things we say are just so much gas (predominately nitrogen and oxygen.) And if you don't believe the Bible is literal truth, then we have no meaningful fellowship or common ground from which to speak. Any more than I would with a Mormon or JW.
Originally posted by SemperReformanda
seebs-
Any being God created which was less than Himself, but free-willed, would *NECESSARILY* sin.
This is almost surreal. You do realize, don't you, that you have just eliminated Free Will in any meaningful sense? Once you say that it was "necessary" that Adam fall, you eliminate any hope of him NOT sinning.
So we started with 2 options: Sinning, or Not Sinning. You've just said that it "necessarily" followed that he would pick option one. Which meant that there was no CHOICE involved. There is no exercise of will apart from choice.
It was impossible for God to create AN Adam who WOULD NOT fall. By dictating the personality that is incapable of sinning, God would be violating the substance of LOVE.This has me a bit confused. It was possible for God to create Adam foreknowing that He WOULD Fall, but it was impossible for God to create Adam knowing He would not? And again, you're artificially limiting God, since He wasn't in any way compelled to create Adam, as opposed to someone else whom He would foresee as being obedient. God seems to have no Free Will in your belief system...
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