Objective Subjective Worldview

RC Tent · Mar 6, 2019

Queller said:
Oh well. I cannot understand why some people on this thread refuse to back up their claims with evidence.

There is different concepts of what is valid evidence going on, that is why.

RC Tent · Mar 6, 2019

Queller said:
You keep asking/saying this in several different ways. No one but you is making this argument.

I am not making that point as an argument, I am asking a question in an attempt to understand the argument presented to me that differences in theology and religion prove that it is all subjective.

I don't believe that the existence of differences in religion prove that it is all subjective - and I don't believe that the existence of Young Earth Creationists proves that science is subjective either.

You may wish to notice that every time I have mentioned this point I am asking a question, not stating that it is my position on the matter.

RC Tent · Mar 6, 2019

Queller said:
The supernatural realm is unable to be tested by objective measures.

If you regard objective and scientific as one and the same this is true, but not everyone does.

Obviously the physical cannot test the non-physical, the question though is do non-physical objective things exist. Moral standards are not physical, however they can be applied regardless of personal preference/feelings in any given situation. That is not physical and also not subjective.

Job 33:6 · Mar 6, 2019

RC Tent said:
I am already aware that what Young Earth Creationists claim includes the supernatural. Whatever mainstream science can demonstrate, they are not going to believe it because they are using a different framework for reality than you are. Science has no means of knowing if they are correct - because they include the supernatural - the only means of testing that are beyond the scope of science. You seem to regard the physical as the only absolute objective reality, this is a philosophical position, it is not demonstrable with science itself - it is actually an opinion. It is not an impossible opinion to understand, but it is nevertheless only your perspective on what science is.

What Young Earth Creationists regard as a supernatural phenomenon you regard as "imaginary" - they do not use that word to represent their own thinking, you are regarding it as that based on your own framework for perceiving reality.

Some people do not believe in any objective reality, including physical things.

I'm not talking about just the supernatural. I'm talking about the natural as well.

I gave the example before about the suggestion that the Grand canyon was formed by a flood. They iognre qualities of physical reality and substitute physical measurements with imagined ideas. Not only do they suggest the occurance of the supernatural, but they also deny and/or ignore measurements of the physically objective natural.

Just as flat earthers ignore measurements made in physical reality, young earthers do the same.

And young earthers do believe in physical things. When they describe formation of strata as a product of a global flood, they are describing physical occurance where rocks are deposited by water. They describe how fossils are deposited on mountaintops by water, and how fish can be found on top of mountains.

What they're doing is they're describing physically real things and are suggesting that measurements of physical reality, support their imagined idea.

They aren't just believing in the supernatural. They're simultaneously ignoring and denying measurements of the natural. And substituting measurements of the natural, with imagined ideas.

RC Tent · Mar 6, 2019

KomatiiteBIF said:
I gave the example before about the suggestion that the Grand canyon was formed by a flood.

A supernaturally initiated flood, with just one man and his family warned supernaturally to prepare to survive it, and all the animals from everywhere moving willingly onto a boat together...this is not a story that excludes supernatural intervention. The mainstream scientific conclusions are bound to differ from the YEC ones - because the framework for reality is different. The possibility of a supernatural cause is automatically excluded from the start in mainstream science - the certainty of a supernatural cause (because the Bible says so) is fundamental to Creationists.

To say that the Grand Canyon was formed by a supernatural flood is to walk all over scientific analysis, but this is coming from people who believe the Bible (as they understand it) actually supersedes science if the two conflict.

You can remain entirely convinced that they are "imagining" it - but that is not something you can prove, it is your philosophical opinion that science represents an objective reality and all theology, faith and religion is subjective or "imaginary".

The Barbarian · Mar 6, 2019

If one is allowed to call in an unscriptural miracle whenever one's argument fails, then all arguments are equally sound.

Job 33:6 · Mar 6, 2019

RC Tent said:
A supernaturally initiated flood, with just one man and his family warned supernaturally to prepare to survive it, and all the animals from everywhere moving willingly onto a boat together...this is not a story that excludes supernatural intervention. The mainstream scientific conclusions are bound to differ from the YEC ones - because the framework for reality is different. The possibility of a supernatural cause is automatically excluded from the start in mainstream science - the certainty of a supernatural cause (because the Bible says so) is fundamental to Creationists.

To say that the Grand Canyon was formed by a supernatural flood is to walk all over scientific analysis, but this is coming from people who believe the Bible (as they understand it) actually supersedes science if the two conflict.

You can remain entirely convinced that they are "imagining" it - but that is not something you can prove, it is your philosophical opinion that science represents an objective reality and all theology, faith and religion is subjective or "imaginary".

I can't prove that they're imagining things? But of course I can because they have nothing but their imaginations backing their radically variable ideas. Young earthers are all over the place with all sorts of ideas and explanations for how something like the Grand canyon formed. Same with topics like evolution. Their ideas of what forms of evolution are or are not possible are all over the place, vague and unclear.

This is because they're literally making things up based on personal imaginative ideas.

Job 33:6 · Mar 6, 2019

The Barbarian said:
If one is allowed to call in an unscriptural miracle whenever one's argument fails, then all arguments are equally sound.

And that's right. They do this all the time. Miracles that have no scriptural basis are invoked countless times. Literally just made up ideas, on a whim.

Job 33:6 · Mar 6, 2019

RC Tent said:
A supernaturally initiated flood, with just one man and his family warned supernaturally to prepare to survive it, and all the animals from everywhere moving willingly onto a boat together...this is not a story that excludes supernatural intervention. The mainstream scientific conclusions are bound to differ from the YEC ones - because the framework for reality is different. The possibility of a supernatural cause is automatically excluded from the start in mainstream science - the certainty of a supernatural cause (because the Bible says so) is fundamental to Creationists.

To say that the Grand Canyon was formed by a supernatural flood is to walk all over scientific analysis, but this is coming from people who believe the Bible (as they understand it) actually supersedes science if the two conflict.

You can remain entirely convinced that they are "imagining" it - but that is not something you can prove, it is your philosophical opinion that science represents an objective reality and all theology, faith and religion is subjective or "imaginary".

And not only do they continually invoke unscriptural miracles, but all the while, they are ignoring and denying physical measurements of physical reality.

And the moment people just start imagining and invoking anything they want, and simultaneously disregarding God's physical creation, I would say that this is a mistake and nobody should be trying to justify their acts.

RC Tent · Mar 6, 2019

The Barbarian said:
If one is allowed to call in an unscriptural miracle whenever one's argument fails, then all arguments are equally sound.

There is a flood and supernatural content with it in the Bible - it is not an an extra-Biblical miracle.

Then again, my point is that science is thrown out as soon as the supernatural has been included. That is not the same as their argument failing - it fails to be scientific from the start, because the start point is Genesis, the framework of reality includes the supernatural from the start.

Anything does not go, the belief that science is not the limit of reality does not mean that absolutely anything is.

Since consensus is not necessary for a claim to be right - and both science and religion are ongoing projects - neither is complete and where knowledge is lacking disputes exist as part of the ongoing effort. Yes, YEC theories do end up abandoned, as do scientific ideas. That is WIP's for you.

RC Tent · Mar 6, 2019

KomatiiteBIF said:
but all the while, they are ignoring and denying physical measurements of physical reality.

Because they don't use the same philosophical framework as you - and in theirs the scientific measurements are disputable - in yours they are not.

The Barbarian · Mar 6, 2019

RC Tent said:
There is a flood and supernatural content with it in the Bible - it is not an an extra-Biblical miracle.

But of course, it has no relationship to evolution. There was, about the right time, a huge regional flood in the Middle East, that drowned many settlements and created the Black Sea. Because the Flood in the Bible is not claimed to be worldwide, it could very well be literally true. Or it could be an allegory. We don't know for sure. But it has no impact on evolution.

Claims that the Grand Canyon was formed by flooding requires a non-Biblical miracle, since it's impossible for a sudden flood to create vertical walls a kilometer high, and entrenched meanders.

Job 33:6 · Mar 6, 2019

RC Tent said:
Because they don't use the same philosophical framework as you - and in theirs the scientific measurements are disputable - in yours they are not.

Call it what you want. Flat earthers have a different philosophical framework as well. Doesn't make their denial of scientific measurements justified.

RC Tent · Mar 6, 2019

The Barbarian said:
Claims that the Grand Canyon was formed by flooding requires a non-Biblical miracle, since it's impossible for a sudden flood to create vertical walls a kilometer high, and entrenched meanders.

Impossible according to what? The standards of science - which do not apply to their thinking already because they are already gone as soon as Genesis is included at all.

As for whether the Bible refers to a global flood - that is an interpretation issue, but if a Young Earth Creationist says that they interpret it as global then we know that they are including a supernatural event, we know that they are not limiting their thinking to scientific standards, hence arguing that their claim is scientifically impossible is simply to state the obvious and something they have already said themselves in the first place.

RC Tent · Mar 6, 2019

KomatiiteBIF said:
Call it what you want. Flat earthers have a different philosophical framework as well. Doesn't make their denial of scientific measurements justified.

God is God, science is not God.

Job 33:6 · Mar 6, 2019

RC Tent said:
God is God, science is not God.

Young earth creationism certainly isn't God either. Far from it.

The Barbarian · Mar 6, 2019

Barbarian observes:
Claims that the Grand Canyon was formed by flooding requires a non-Biblical miracle, since it's impossible for a sudden flood to create vertical walls a kilometer high, and entrenched meanders.

RC Tent said:
Impossible according to what?

Observed behavior of flood waters, and of soft sediment. These bends can become entrenched only under specific conditions over a long period of time.

https://www.howitworksdaily.com/horseshoe-bend-geology/

Would you like to learn about how the new channels around Mt. St. Helens demonstrate why it's impossible for a sudden flood to do this?

The standards of science - which do not apply to their thinking already because they are already gone as soon as Genesis is included at all.

This seems completely without content.

As for whether the Bible refers to a global flood - that is an interpretation issue, but if a Young Earth Creationist says that they interpret it as global then we know that they are including a supernatural event, we know that they are not limiting their thinking to scientific standards, hence arguing that their claim is scientifically impossible is simply to state the obvious and something they have already said themselves in the first place.

And so more non-scriptural miracles to plug all the holes.

RC Tent · Mar 6, 2019

The Barbarian said:
Barbarian observes:
Claims that the Grand Canyon was formed by flooding requires a non-Biblical miracle, since it's impossible for a sudden flood to create vertical walls a kilometer high, and entrenched meanders.

It is impossible by the same standard to make anything exist by saying "Let there be the thing" isn't it?

RC Tent · Mar 6, 2019

The Barbarian said:
This seems completely without content.

Well it is a sentence and it contains words.

Queller · Mar 6, 2019

RC Tent said:
The Holy Spirit is the judge of that, not me.

People can decide to follow a set of principles, join a church, and live as if Christianity is true before the Holy Spirit has entered them. Doing so can work as a way to find out if the Holy Spirit will do as Christians claim, and enter them.

So you believe that the Holy Spirit will enter into man without being asked?

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