Not struggling, but curious to hear a theist point of view.

oi_antz · Aug 31, 2010

davidsheart77 said:
Well of course you would think I am angry with the God Of Israel, its very typical. But you have not answered my question say, you were a king and were all knowing and had all the power in the world to prevent anything possible and yet knowing( for you are all knowing) you hired an evil advisor in your kingdom and had children who had a specific commandment according to your hand, the evil advisor knew this commandment and was evil in heart and to throw off the king would corrupt them, would you still allow this evil advisor around your children, for pain and suffering to come theirin? when you specifically know how weak your children are in their innocence. You know the evil advisors plan and still allow your children to dance around with him and his presence around your children, for what? for your glory? the entire kingdom comes to war, chaos, destruction and death, for your glory? This is the beginning concept of the God of Israel. How then is he not in fault? have you read the book of Job, job loses everything just to see if he would not curse him!!!!!! really come on!!!! Use your head.

Well I'm not about to question God's decisions, He knows the heart of Satan much better than you or I do, and I'm sure He would definitely prefer that evil doers would come to repentance. However it is not so holy if He was to destroy His enemies without first considering an alternative plan of salvation (which we are riding at present). Please put your anger on a leash, I am finding your attitude a bit offensive. Getting angry with an opponent isn't going to solve any problem (God knows this too).

davidsheart77 · Aug 31, 2010

oi_antz said:
Well I'm not about to question God's decisions, He knows the heart of Satan much better than you or I do, and I'm sure He would definitely prefer that evil doers would come to repentance. However it is not so holy if He was to destroy His enemies without first considering an alternative plan of salvation (which we are riding at present). Please put your anger on a leash, I am finding your attitude a bit offensive. Getting angry with an opponent isn't going to solve any problem (God knows this too).

Who ever said you were my opponent or that I am angry I am only asking you what is according to the bible which you have happened tojust tiptoe your way around everything, if you are lead into all truth well why can't you answer these questions. That I know your God expects of you. Destroy his enemies aren't they his children as well?

december1990 · Sep 1, 2010

Sounds to me like you have an active imagination (in a good way). It's good that your critically thinking but don't let "critical thinking" stifle you ever believing in Jesus Christ. The thing is you have to believe that the Bible was made by Jesus through man. Man may be broken but The Bible still has God's stamp on it.

Everything happens for a reason. Sometimes I ask myself those questions, "Why the suffering?" I even thought about this in class today but then I came up with an answer.. it may not be what you want to hear but I thought..

If life was perfect, everything we had imagined.. why would we look for eternal life? But I'm sure that's not the right answer... I guess our sins just brought this upon us but God will redeem us again but for now we'll just have to wait. We live in an uncertain world that's just the logic of it. But.. it shouldn't stop us from loving or believing in God. We have to be like Job.. we have to love God when He does things that shake our world (or lives) and when He does things that stabilize our world (or lives).

heron · Sep 1, 2010

If god is all knowing and all powerful why couldn't he punish the bad himself rather than allow an evil entity to try and manipulate and sway us "off the path" and torture us. Surely a rational god would create limitations instead of letting evil run rampant on his creations

Even after being a seasoned Christian, I find this is dependent on asking... actively involving God, rather than just expecting Him to make everything perfect for us.

Continue your train of thought, and put yourself in the player position of the strategist. What format of good/evil/truth/existence would work? You don't have to answer for my sake... just keep thinking.

singpeace · Sep 1, 2010

All of that just might be possible ... if God were not God. He sees everything and knows everything. So how is a nasty demon going to rewrite what God wrote?

I know it makes no sense to you. I sincerely hope that somehow there is a breakthrough for you and that you will know the Spirit of the Lord before it is too late. God bless you and save you in Jesus' name.

davidsheart77 · Sep 1, 2010

Everything happens for a reason. Sometimes I ask myself those questions, "Why the suffering?" I even thought about this in class today but then I came up with an answer.. it may not be what you want to hear but I thought..

Thank you for the compliment of having a great imagination, I call it critical thinking, reasoning. Everything happens for a reason you are perfectly right its called, the law of cause and effect.
If life was perfect, everything we had imagined.. why would we look for eternal life? But I'm sure that's not the right answer... I guess our sins just brought this upon us but God will redeem us again but for now we'll just have to wait. We live in an uncertain world that's just the logic of it. But.. it shouldn't stop us from loving or believing in God. We have to be like Job.. we have to love God when He does things that shake our world (or lives) and when He does things that stabilize our world (or lives).[/quote]
We look for eternal life or we created such a concept(no one knows for certain if their is eternal life that is the point of faith)because we are simply afraid of death, we don't want to stop living, we don't want to lose the joyful experiences we have had when it comes to our death. Yes, very well said our sins not the devil or his demons or his influence has brought any of this, our own choices, we do live in a uncertain and mysterious world. Funny thing is that those things are easy to understand accept and very realistic the way you and I just said it. The bible creates an entire world of its own that has caused confusion, war, divisons, exterminations etc. Our world is slowly becoming easier to understand, in the bible its never easy. So you actually believe God shakes things up, wow allowing people with cancer, raped another member dieing is for God's purposes or a random chance part of nature? See with the first compared to the latter your God seems cruel, just like for the vanity of Job, a test of his faith!!!!!!What! Job was perfect according to God, That kind of God seems bored. I can accept that life happens with misfortunes and its how we deal with them and face them in life that strengthens or weakens our character but that the Supreme being causes or allows it That is blasphemy to God if anything. I think he has nothing to do with it for he allows nature to run its course, or how else can you explain the unemployment line and if Your BIBLE GOD is so intervening where is he. MY GOD tells me now use your brain and do what you can do which is why I am still in college. I guess my view of faith is more based on logic then superstition, while you think its demons and want to rebuke them in the name of Jesus, I am thinking wow they have a serious mental disorder, so how can we help this person out. While you bible believers are thinking in a literal sense God creates each and every one of us in the womb, I am thinking if that is the case, why do we have so many babies born with defects and impairments? genetics or mother's misdirected choices. Where does God come into play he only came into play in the beginning, I believe everything runs its course, truly being freewill and truly leaving him without fault. The reason people hate the bible, because men have God to involved in the bible and when you look up a complete desolation and disorder. Oh but then again since he does not show favorites to his creation, maybe he only was to involved with Israel and the beginning Church. Since you worship a Jewish God not yours by nature. Why not the muslim God? They think you guys are going to hell as well. Who is right?

oi_antz · Sep 1, 2010

davidsheart77 said:
Who ever said you were my opponent or that I am angry I am only asking you what is according to the bible which you have happened tojust tiptoe your way around everything, if you are lead into all truth well why can't you answer these questions. That I know your God expects of you. Destroy his enemies aren't they his children as well?

Well it seems that you are only interested in picking a fight. If you really have questions that you want answers for, why not list them I'll do my best to explain my understanding although I don't know everything I can certainly be honest about what I think is right. I don't agree that God expects me to answer everyone's questions, the truth belongs to God and not to me.

oi_antz · Sep 1, 2010

Hi davidsheart77, I am going to have a go at answering your post so as not to be regarded as tip-toeing around your questions.

davidsheart77 said:
Everything happens for a reason. Sometimes I ask myself those questions, "Why the suffering?" I even thought about this in class today but then I came up with an answer.. it may not be what you want to hear but I thought..

I don't agree that everything happens for a reason, I do agree that things happen as a result of decisions though.

davidsheart77 said:
Thank you for the compliment of having a great imagination, I call it critical thinking, reasoning. Everything happens for a reason you are perfectly right its called, the law of cause and effect.

That is fantastic, good for you! You have already discovered this is the key to knowing God while keeping an open mind.

davidsheart77 said:
If life was perfect, everything we had imagined.. why would we look for eternal life?

I'm confused what you are referring to, can you show me the verses behind this idea?

davidsheart77 said:
We look for eternal life or we created such a concept(no one knows for certain if their is eternal life that is the point of faith)because we are simply afraid of death, we don't want to stop living, we don't want to lose the joyful experiences we have had when it comes to our death. Yes, very well said our sins not the devil or his demons or his influence has brought any of this, our own choices, we do live in a uncertain and mysterious world. Funny thing is that those things are easy to understand accept and very realistic the way you and I just said it.

Spot on!

davidsheart77 said:
The bible creates an entire world of its own that has caused confusion, war, divisons, exterminations etc. Our world is slowly becoming easier to understand, in the bible its never easy.

That is not what the Bible is meant to do, if that truly is the effect of the Bible then the problem is the way the Bible is being used by humans, it is not a fault of God because the Bible is meant to facilitate our relationship with God, not to cause confusion/war/division etc - these are all human actions driven by humans who don't understand the true meaning of Christ.

davidsheart77 said:
So you actually believe God shakes things up, wow allowing people with cancer, raped another member dieing is for God's purposes or a random chance part of nature?

No, God very very rarely intervenes, He permits us to our own devices while the generations of evil gradually draw nearer to an end.

davidsheart77 said:
See with the first compared to the latter your God seems cruel, just like for the vanity of Job, a test of his faith!!!!!!What! Job was perfect according to God, That kind of God seems bored. I can accept that life happens with misfortunes and its how we deal with them and face them in life that strengthens or weakens our character but that the Supreme being causes or allows it That is blasphemy to God if anything. I think he has nothing to do with it for he allows nature to run its course, or how else can you explain the unemployment line and if Your BIBLE GOD is so intervening where is he.

I don't understand the question, can you rephrase it?

davidsheart77 said:
MY GOD tells me now use your brain and do what you can do which is why I am still in college. I guess my view of faith is more based on logic then superstition, while you think its demons and want to rebuke them in the name of Jesus, I am thinking wow they have a serious mental disorder, so how can we help this person out.

Well that is judgmental and creates the very division you like to pin on the Bible, I say this attitude is hypocritical.

davidsheart77 said:
While you bible believers are thinking in a literal sense God creates each and every one of us in the womb, I am thinking if that is the case, why do we have so many babies born with defects and impairments? genetics or mother's misdirected choices. Where does God come into play he only came into play in the beginning,

Disease is an artifact of our sinful world. Originally there was no death, it is only through sin that death entered the world.

davidsheart77 said:
I believe everything runs its course, truly being freewill and truly leaving him without fault. The reason people hate the bible, because men have God to involved in the bible and when you look up a complete desolation and disorder.

It depends which way you look at it. You're taking a really negative view on the Bible so your attitudes about it naturally reflect that.

davidsheart77 said:
Oh but then again since he does not show favorites to his creation, maybe he only was to involved with Israel and the beginning Church. Since you worship a Jewish God not yours by nature. Why not the muslim God? They think you guys are going to hell as well. Who is right?

What matters is whether you have made your peace with God or not.

davidsheart77 · Sep 1, 2010

oi_antz said:
Hi davidsheart77, I am going to have a go at answering your post so as not to be regarded as tip-toeing around your questions.

I don't agree that everything happens for a reason, I do agree that things happen as a result of decisions though.

That is fantastic, good for you! You have already discovered this is the key to knowing God while keeping an open mind.

I'm confused what you are referring to, can you show me the verses behind this idea?

Spot on!

That is not what the Bible is meant to do, if that truly is the effect of the Bible then the problem is the way the Bible is being used by humans, it is not a fault of God because the Bible is meant to facilitate our relationship with God, not to cause confusion/war/division etc - these are all human actions driven by humans who don't understand the true meaning of Christ.

No, God very very rarely intervenes, He permits us to our own devices while the generations of evil gradually draw nearer to an end.

I don't understand the question, can you rephrase it?

Well that is judgmental and creates the very division you like to pin on the Bible, I say this attitude is hypocritical.

Disease is an artifact of our sinful world. Originally there was no death, it is only through sin that death entered the world.

It depends which way you look at it. You're taking a really negative view on the Bible so your attitudes about it naturally reflect that.

What matters is whether you have made your peace with God or not.

Well you didnt answer my questions, that post was directed to someone else not you buddy. And I would respond to it but you didn't say anything reflecting the bible just your own concept of your perception of reality instead of what is written, which is Good. The reason I find it interesting, is because i argue according to a christian view point and you christians disarm it yourselves which reveal two things, 1 you really don't believe the bible 2 and when you argue these things you don't argue according to the bible but according to how subconsciously you really see it therefore leaving me with no arguement because its how I see it. Which if you stopped for a second you would realize that when you defense yourself its more according to reality than the scriptures. Which is completely normal.

oi_antz · Sep 2, 2010

davidsheart77 said:
Well you didnt answer my questions, that post was directed to someone else not you buddy. And I would respond to it but you didn't say anything reflecting the bible just your own concept of your perception of reality instead of what is written, which is Good. The reason I find it interesting, is because i argue according to a christian view point and you christians disarm it yourselves which reveal two things, 1 you really don't believe the bible 2 and when you argue these things you don't argue according to the bible but according to how subconsciously you really see it therefore leaving me with no arguement because its how I see it. Which if you stopped for a second you would realize that when you defense yourself its more according to reality than the scriptures. Which is completely normal.

Preposterous, your argument has been mostly against the Christian view point, eg:

The bible creates an entire world of its own that has caused confusion, war, divisons, exterminations etc. Our world is slowly becoming easier to understand, in the bible its never easy.

That is not a Christian view point.

davidsheart77 · Sep 2, 2010

oi_antz said:
Preposterous, your argument has been mostly against the Christian view point, eg:

That is not a Christian view point.

Exactly but you have not agreed with the chrtisian viewpoint in these matters. And no that is not, that is a reality view point that you cannot deny my friend.

oi_antz · Sep 2, 2010

davidsheart77 said:
Exactly but you have not agreed with the chrtisian viewpoint in these matters. And no that is not, that is a reality view point that you cannot deny my friend.

I take full responsibility for misunderstanding you. Could you please reword your OP I would like to clear this up.

oi_antz · Sep 2, 2010

davidsheart77 said:
Exactly but you have not agreed with the chrtisian viewpoint in these matters. And no that is not, that is a reality view point that you cannot deny my friend.

I think I know how this happened. I was posting on another thread where a similar question was being asked, and I assumed I had been conversing with you when in fact it was someone else. Bit of a blond thing to do, sorry for the confusion.

Here's a copy/paste of what I said over there, hopefully this will help fill in the gaps where I'd assumed I had already shared it with you:

There has been an attempt to topple God the father in heaven. His son stepped up with a plan to put all the spirits in a universe we know as time and space. Satan is being judged by God all throughout time, and God is a fair judge. He does listen to our plea and He is just. When the humans were deceived they really screwed up His creation, I don't know how much you can comprehend this fact but I know what His vision for the future is and I can tell you based on that hope that our God is good and you ought not argue against that.

Well you are judging God in this thread, but since God is blameless, all your judgment is landing on Satan. That is the judgment I explained in the first paragraph which lasts as long as Satan roams the earth. As long as a human remains anti-God, he is responsible for giving evil a place in the world. However your choice to take this position on the topic is just as valuable as my position

Well God has a capacity to forgive His enemy well beyond our capacity to forgive a brother. It is rather ridiculous to see people on this thread with their hearts set against God as though it is His fault that someone other than His holy self decided it would be good to rise above His maker. If you don't personally know God then you will definitely find it difficult to understand how patient He is with His enemies since your greatest role model is just as human as you are.

Don't forget that time and space are finite and linear, the fact that something happened earlier on the time scale cannot be undone. What is done is done and it is a matter of repairing and rescuing His beloved human from the clutches of the enemy rather than allowing the lot of us to end up a slave to Satan.

I really want to write more and more but I just hate repeating myself! We are discussing spirituality when we discuss God because God is spirit. This spiritual realm cannot be measured nor influenced by science, but it can be observed in anyone who has faith. So spirituality is a very real artifact of our world. Sadly, ignorance doesn't make us immune to it, we are born as slaves to sin and only through the blood of Christ we can be liberated from the bondage. Jesus doesn't take our soul from us, He restores it back to God's original vision for the human that there is no death but eternal life. Check out this quote for an idea of how time will end up once the run of evil has finished taking it's course:
Daniel 8:17-18
"These four huge animals," he said, "represent four kings who will someday rule the earth. But in the end the people of the Most High God shall rule the governments of the world forever and forever."
Revelation 21
1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
The moral to the story I've presented you is that you, I and everyone else have our very own right to decide whether to look at things positively or negatively, and the fruits of our spirit are reflective of this attitude.

The original thread is quite interesting, it is asking whether we can forgive God: http://www.christianforums.com/t7495504/

Not struggling, but curious to hear a theist point of view.

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