Warrior4Jah

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I didnt vote in this poll because its set up. If I said that I thought forcing Christianity in schools is wrong, which I do, you would say I thought that saying under God in the pledge was wrong. Which its NOT! It does not in any way force christianity. The pledge says under GOD, not CHRIST. Islam believes in God, Rastafarian believes in God, Jews believe in God, even  Pagans/Wiccans believe in Gods with one supreme God. It works out for everybody. You have to believe in Christ and God to be a christian. Oops, I almos forgot the atheists, you dont believe inn God. Well im awfuly sorry freind, but wether you like it or not the rest of the world DOES believe in God. Even we do say it, your entire argument immediatly crashes to the ground with a few simple words. You dont have to. In school, no one is forced to say the pledge. It is optional.
 

seebs

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Actually, many pagan groups do not believe in "one supreme God". The Hindus believe in a polytheist system.

How would you feel if, somewhere down the road, the U.S. had a majority Hindu population, and they changed the pledge to say "one nation under Vishnu", and when you complained, they said "it's okay, Christ is just another aspect of Vishnu"?

If you wouldn't be okay with it, why are you doing it to someone else?
 
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Warrior4Jah,

The issue isn't whether it is wrong for the government to endorce the 1954 version of the pledge of allegiance. The issue is if it is unconstitutional. The Opinion of the 9th district is pretty clear why it is unconstitutional. I suggest that you read it, before you continue with this thread.

Newdow v. US Congress

Originally posted by Warrior4Jah
You dont have to. In school, no one is forced to say the pledge. It is optional.

If it is optional, then why are you so upset that it was ruled that schools can't endorce it? Don't you still have the option to say it if you want to? I don't see how this would affect you one bit.
 
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Warrior4Jah

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The government doesnt endorce anything. I wish they did but they dont. Im not upset that schools cant endorce it. Im just making it perfectly clear that the pledge does not say anything about christianity, and that no one should be making a big deasl out of it cuz no one has to say it anyway.
 
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You didn't read the opinion, did you? Until you do, your run the risk of aruging points, as you are now, that the court has already addressed.

It makes is very clear that the 1954 law and the school district's policy is unconstitutional because it does create a government-established link between patriotism and piety. This violates the Lemon Test. Furthermore, it also fails the coersion test, even if people don't have to say it. The court opinion is very clear on this, any endorcement of religion, not matter how generic is still an endorcement of religion.
 
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Warrior4Jah

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I couldnt care less. In the previous discussion it was debated that the pledge of allegiance forced the christian religion upon others. My goal was to make it clear that not only is christianity beliefs in the pledge, but no one has to say the pledge, therefore no one is being forced to do anything.
 
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Havoc

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Amasing how this "But it's really any god their talking about (insert big toothy grin)" crap has crept into the Christian arguement. Does anyone really have any doubt what is meant when an American says "Do you believe in God?", of course not. If it really was a generic diety it would say "one nation under a god" with the word god not capitalised. When you say "under God" it's very clear that it means the Abramic God. If you want further proof just read the reasons put forward for inserting the phrase long after the pledge was written. You'll soon see which particular diety was being referenced.

Why do Christians always need a smokescreen when they appear to be losing. Talk about a "lukewarm" excuse for holding onto a clearly unconstitutional and johnny-come-lately phrase.

Havoc
 
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Warrior4Jah

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Havoc, I dont care what they ment its what they say that is taken in. When someone says God, they cant mean on God of a certain religion, if they do at least make it apparent.

Why do atheists always run on with arguments that hold no water? You cant speak for the rest of the nation and how they interpret something. And just for the record, how can somethin be unconstitutional when nobody even has to say or follow it? Dosnt make sense to me.
 
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mac_philo

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Finally, a question with a clear answer.

Something such as that can be unconstitutional because the establishment clause prohibits congress from passing any law that establishes a religion. Thus if congress passed a resolution that satanism or christianity or purple people eaterism or whatever is the chosen religion, a mandate that nobody had to follow, it would still be unconstitional.

Why does that sound familiar? Oh yes, in the 1950's the House passed a resolution that unlike godless commies our pledge would pay homage to a monotheist invisible entity....
 
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Warrior,

I highly suggest you read the opinion before you embarrass yourself any further.


From Newdow v. US Congress:

See there is clear case law that makes your argument fall apart upon investigation.

 
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D. Scarlatti

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I find it remarkable that practically the only word you managed to spell correctly was "atheists." Congratulations.

I also urge you to read the 9th Circuit's opinion, to which Rufus has helpfully provided a link. Maybe you can come up with a few simple words, further to a lame invocation of de minimis, that might crash the opinion to the ground. No one's managed to do it yet.
 
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Warrior4Jah

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Im glad you caught that Scarlatti. Yet Im going to answer some things anyway.

Rufus, what make syou think I didnt read it before? Id already read it and I knew what it said, but I cant understand is the idiocy of our judges on the 9th circuit court out in the west. primary nor secondary school children are in any dilema. Nobody has to say it, simple as that. I appreciate mac_philo making the true reason apparent, but what im saying is that no one is being forced religion. Children in school arent in any dilema, because they DONT HAVE TO SAY IT IF THEY DONT WANT TO.

Havoc- I didnt say you were, just asking, lol.


Really though, im done arguing about this. Nobody really cares to much except you people, and as long they arnt gonna pass it, I realize arguing about it is a waste of time.
 
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ashibaka

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Originally posted by Warrior4Jah
*shrugs* I wouldnt care. I dont have to believe something because its in a pledge. I just wouldnt say it.

What if, for some stupid reason, the majority of people wanted the pledge to say: "One nation, whites only, indivisible..."

Black people wouldn't have to say it.

Would you have a problem with that? I've actually gotten some "no" answers for this question; I'm asking you honestly.
 
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