Non-saints

Macarius said:

I can't speak for the RCC, but to my knowledge the EO has never "de-sainted" someone, and I, like you, do not understand how the RCC behavior fits into their ecclesiology or claims.

I'm eager to hear a reply, so this is somewhat a "bump" reply...

Click to expand...

bbbbbbb said:

I have wondered for some time about what happens when an individual is de-beatified. This happen, I believe, in the RCC in the 1970's when the Church decided to clean up its roll of saints and determined that many of them had never even existed. Thus, not only were they not saints, but they just never were. The vast majority of these were really obscure saints, but the list also included Saint Christopher, the patron saint of travelers. In the light the mutltitude of miracles attributed to his intercession, it strikes me as a great conundrum if, in fact, he never even existed. Recently I saw a fellow wearing a Saint Christopher medal and wondered why, although I did not ask him. So, how does one account for the "miracles" performed by a saint who never existed?

On a personal level, one of my ancestors from the Middle Ages was declared a saint and even has a small church dedicated to him. I am now concerned that he might have ended up on the list, although I am living proof that he existed, being a descendant of his.

Click to expand...

bbbbbbb said:

I have wondered for some time about what happens when an individual is de-beatified. This happen, I believe, in the RCC in the 1970's when the Church decided to clean up its roll of saints and determined that many of them had never even existed. Thus, not only were they not saints, but they just never were. The vast majority of these were really obscure saints, but the list also included Saint Christopher, the patron saint of travelers. In the light the mutltitude of miracles attributed to his intercession, it strikes me as a great conundrum if, in fact, he never even existed. Recently I saw a fellow wearing a Saint Christopher medal and wondered why, although I did not ask him. So, how does one account for the "miracles" performed by a saint who never existed?

On a personal level, one of my ancestors from the Middle Ages was declared a saint and even has a small church dedicated to him. I am now concerned that he might have ended up on the list, although I am living proof that he existed, being a descendant of his.

Click to expand...

bbbbbbb said:

Unfortunately, that is not my understanding. There are far more saints' feast days, not to mention saints themselves, than there are days in a year (even a leap year like this one), plus there is always October 31, All Saints' Day, which is specifically for each and every saint. I am unaware of any church law that requires masses to be said for each saint on their day (especially All Saints' Day). Even today, the obscure saints which remain on the list rarely are known, much less venerated.

I do remember specifically that, following the action, Catholics in general stopped venerating St. Christopher, so his medals disappeared from arouond necks and his statues disappeared from car dashboards.

Our of curiosity, who is now the patron saint of travellers?

Click to expand...

narnia59 said:

I believe you're speaking about removing the celebration of a saint from the church calendar, meaning they no longer have a specific feast day set aside in their memory. This is nothing close to saying they never existed. Limited room on the church calendar is all. Some saints never made it to having their own feast day. Others have been removed over time to allow newer ones to be added. All still saints.

Click to expand...

EmperorConstantine said:

Some are commemorated more than once!

St. Alexis of Wilkes-Barre, for example, has his feast day on May 7. However, there is a day in the year when we commemorate all the saints of North America and on that day St. Alexis is one of those commemorated.

And some are commemorated en masse.

During WWII when the Independent State of Croatia (Fascist puppet government under the Axis Powers) went about a genocide of the Serbs, there were many Serbian Orthodox martyrs as a result of it. I know that there are many whose names we may not know and so there is one day when many are commemorated. Something like "New Martyrs of *insert camp name or city here* ".

Click to expand...

bbbbbbb said:

It occured to me, after my post, that some, indeed, are commemorated more than once a year, which is not a bad thing. There is no doubt in my mind that there are multitudes of saints in heaven whose names we will not know until we get there. Thus, to isolate a handful of them and lower them to a lesser level (if not removal entirely) strikes me as establishing degrees of sainthood. As I understand the Bible, all saints are equal in the sight of God, who is no respecter of persons. Should we not attempt to do likewise?

Click to expand...

narnia59 said:

I believe you have been mis-informed. People over-reacted to the removal from the universal calendar. He is still a saint and is still the patron saint of travellers.

Click to expand...