Non-mention in Scripture

topher694 · Jul 16, 2019

tturt said:
(Topher 694 would be interested in those materials).

As I said I'd be happy to do some of our teaching if there was an appropriate forum for it, which I'm not sure there is at this point. But, the materials are designed to be accompanied by teaching and training. Without those to go along with it and an appropriate forum, I fear it would just quicky devolve into arguments instead of learning... It's a topic that always invites a lot of debate here, and I'm not looking to debate on this, I'm looking to equip.

Carl Emerson · Jul 16, 2019

OK thanks for the discussion, is there a way forward with this? Would it be appropriate to ask the mod's to create a space for this purpose?

My main aim was to alert the readers to the need to take seriously the place of prophesy in this late hour and consider how best to structure this into our churches so we are no longer deaf to what is occurring spiritually.

By the way I am not referring to 'end times' prophesy but rather that which pertains to hearing the right strategy for the church to be most effective locally.

In some cases for example the carnage occurring in some cases where brothers and sisters come under persecution might have been avoided if there was an active prophetic voice operating.

Years back my Pastor at the time invited folks who thought they had a prophetic word, vision or dream to write it out and give it to him. At times the offerings fitted together so He could see what the Holy Spirit was trying to say but individually they made no sense.

On one occasion the elders rejected a prophetic word and a member of the congregation knocked on the Pastors door at 2 in the morning and washed his feet. Is a result the elders came to repentance and accepted the word and the church was back on track. These were wonderful days but the momentum of the Spirit was lost as the church oversight felt the need to 'manage' the move.

tall73 · Aug 1, 2019

Radagast said:
The context of the chapter (indeed of the first half of the sentence in the ESV) is that the prophets should exercise self-control and take turns. Nothing like what the OP suggested.

I think that you are correct regarding the context of that particular phrase, that it is indicating speaking in turn.

However, the larger point being made, of others weighing the prophetic utterance, is still referenced:

I Corinthians 14:26 How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for ]edification. 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret. 28 But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God. 29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge. 30 But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent. 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged. 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

And this ties back to I Corinthians 12:

4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works e]">[e]all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

There is a gift of discernment of spirits.

I Thessalonians 5:19 Do not quench the Spirit. 20 Do not despise prophecies. 21 Test all things; hold fast what is good. 22 Abstain from every form of evil.

We are told to test prophecies, not to reject them or put out the Spirit's fire.

The tests of the prophets have been largely referenced as well, so yes, as you said teachers as well as those discerning spirits play a role.

Usually acknowledged tests:

If predictive, must come to pass, and not in name of other gods

Deuteronomy 18:20 But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.’ 21 And if you say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?’— 22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.

Deuteronomy 13:1 “If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’—which you have not known—‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walka]">[a] after the Lord your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him. 5 But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has spoken in order to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of bondage, to entice you from the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall b]">[b]put away the evil from your midst.

Should comply with previous revelation (in this case law and testimony in Moses' time)

Isaiah 8:19 And when they say to you, “Seek those who are mediums and wizards, who whisper and mutter,” should not a people seek their God? Should they seek the dead on behalf of the living? 20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

The Bereans were commended for searching the scriptures to see whether the preaching of Paul and Silas was true.

10 Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.

Fruits

Matthew 7:15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

Christology

I Corinthians 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant: 2 You know that you were Gentiles, carried away to these dumb idols, however you were led. 3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

I John 2:20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and youe]">[e] know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

I John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.
4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. 5 They are of the world. Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them. 6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

tall73 · Aug 1, 2019

An example of God speaking through multiple prophets to indicate his will:

Acts 20:22 And see, now I go bound in the spirit to Jerusalem, not knowing the things that will happen to me there, 23 except that the Holy Spirit testifies in every city, saying that chains and tribulations await me. 24 c]">[c]But none of these things move me; nor do I count my life dear to myself, so that I may finish my d]">[d]race with joy, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God.

tall73 · Aug 1, 2019

Carl Emerson said:
You will notice that the spirits of the prophets are to be subject to the prophets not the teachers.

This means that the truth or otherwise of utterances was to be spiritually discerned.

Spiritual things are spiritually discerned. Both discerning of spirits is a spiritual gift, but so is teaching. And they were to make sure it went with the doctrine already preached. Now you specifically address those things not directly referenced in the Scriptures. Yet there may still be scriptural tests that can be applied, and then yes, spiritual discernment.

But the main distinction in spiritually discerned things is not between prophets and teachers, but between the natural man and the spiritual.

13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Also, all of the gifts are given for edification of the body so that we are not tossed by every wind of doctrine:

11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

tall73 · Aug 1, 2019

An extreme example of this process of discerning the will of God is the Acts 15 council. After noting their experience of the Spirit, comparing Old Testament Scripture, and letting the elders speak their letter included the following:

24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, h]">[h]saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law”—to whom we gave no such commandment— 25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one i]">[i]accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexualj]">[j] immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.

Farewell.

tall73 · Aug 1, 2019

Carl Emerson said:
My main aim was to alert the readers to the need to take seriously the place of prophesy in this late hour and consider how best to structure this into our churches so we are no longer deaf to what is occurring spiritually.

By the way I am not referring to 'end times' prophesy but rather that which pertains to hearing the right strategy for the church to be most effective locally.

In some cases for example the carnage occurring in some cases where brothers and sisters come under persecution might have been avoided if there was an active prophetic voice operating.

A good biblical example there would be the famine:

Acts 11:27 And in these days prophets came from Jerusalem to Antioch. 28 Then one of them, named Agabus, stood up and showed by the Spirit that there was going to be a great famine throughout all the world, which also happened in the days of Claudius Caesar. 29 Then the disciples, each according to his ability, determined to send relief to the brethren dwelling in Judea. 30 This they also did, and sent it to the elders by the hands of Barnabas and Saul.

tall73 · Aug 1, 2019

Carl Emerson said:
Actually yes... John is not talking about prophesy from believers in the church context - Paul is.

The false teachers had gone out from the believers in I John, and in the wake of that he was re-assuring them of their confidence, and how they know that the false teachers were not of God. So while they were not still in the church, their messages likely took place in the church initially, and now things had played out with them leaving.

And based on some of the texts is likely dealt with Docetism. If tradition is accurate in this case John resisted Cerinthus a Docetist, in Ephesus, per Irenaeus.

Non-mention in Scripture

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Non-mention in Scripture

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