Non-denominational view of how to get to heaven.

Tangible · Nov 14, 2012

If I may interject here, in the Lutheran high view of the Word, we believe that hearing God's Law not only works intellectually but also objectively, actually putting to death the old man of sin clinging to our flesh. Likewise, we believe that the Gospel of Jesus Christ not only gladdens and uplifts our hearts, but also works objectively to give the gift of faith, forgive sins, and raise to new life our new man created in the image of Christ.

In other words, preaching the Law and the Gospel is not just information about contrition and justification and sanctification to which the will, emotions and intellect may respond, but that they are actually means through which God works objectively to put to death, raise to new life, and recreate his dear children in the image of Christ.

bbbbbbb · Nov 14, 2012

Tangible said:
If I may interject here, in the Lutheran high view of the Word, we believe that hearing God's Law not only works intellectually but also objectively, actually putting to death the old man of sin clinging to our flesh. Likewise, we believe that the Gospel of Jesus Christ not only gladdens and uplifts our hearts, but also works objectively to give the gift of faith, forgive sins, and raise to new life our new man created in the image of Christ.

In other words, preaching the Law and the Gospel is not just information about contrition and justification and sanctification to which the will, emotions and intellect may respond, but that they are actually means through which God works objectively to put to death, raise to new life, and recreate his dear children in the image of Christ.

Thank you for the helpful interjection. This brings up a question in my mind. If there is a person in the audience who does not understand the language of the sermon and there is no translator present for him, does the law and the gospel objectively work in his life?

Tangible · Nov 14, 2012

Excellent observation as always. The answer is that God works when and where and how he will in order to save whom he will.

bbbbbbb · Nov 14, 2012

Tangible said:
Excellent observation as always. The answer is that God works when and where and how he will in order to save whom he will.

This is true, but, as Paul observes in Romans 10:17 "so faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ." The clear implication is that the act of hearing entails understanding. Without a cognitive response there is no such thing as faith. For all intents and purposes meaningless noise (babble in another language) is not hearing.

Tangible · Nov 14, 2012

Sorry, but I don't see the word 'comprehend' or 'understand' anywhere in that verse. God acts to save through the means of his Word. That's what he promises. It doesn't say that there must be an ability to understand (else how would the mentally incapacitated be saved) nor does it say that God is obligated to save each person who hears the Word.

Nor does this verse exclude other forms of communication, such as the written word or sign language.

It is neither safe nor wise to exceed the plain words of scripture.

bbbbbbb · Nov 15, 2012

Tangible said:
Sorry, but I don't see the word 'comprehend' or 'understand' anywhere in that verse. God acts to save through the means of his Word. That's what he promises. It doesn't say that there must be an ability to understand (else how would the mentally incapacitated be saved) nor does it say that God is obligated to save each person who hears the Word.

Nor does this verse exclude other forms of communication, such as the written word or sign language.

It is neither safe nor wise to exceed the plain words of scripture.

It is also unwise to misunderstand scripture. For example, our Catholic friends are quite insistent that brothers are not brothers because they are really cousins, based upon the remote possibility that brothers could be understood to be cousins, rather than brothers.

In this case hearing carries the implication of understanding. Jesus Himself, referring to Isaiah, said, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear." Did he simply mean that anyone who has functioning auditory capabilities should be able to register sounds in his brain, without necessarily any comprehension or understanding? I think not.

I am quite unsure if mentally capacitated individuals will be saved or not. That is entirely up to God, who has not revealed His will through His Word in regard to them, as well as a host of other individuals. If they are saved it will be entirely of God's grace.

Tangible · Nov 15, 2012

bbbbbbb said:
If they are saved it will be entirely of God's grace.

As opposed to ... ?

I don't think you're suggesting that we who are (apparently ) mentally capable are not saved entirely by the grace of God?

Stephen Kendall · Nov 15, 2012

cuja1 said:
I feel like I have finally figured out what I believe it takes to get to heaven and I was wandering what others think. John 3:16 states that for God so loved the world that He gave his only son that who soever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life. This verse is often used to tell people how to be saved, but I have come to believe that this is more of a summary.

It is not if you believe in him, it is if you daily deny yourself pick up your cross and follow him. And the denying yourself, picking up your cross, and following him could be expanded into an unending exhaustive detail about daily trials and tribulations dealing with sin etc.

Is that pretty much the non-denominational view?

You believe in him and not what you can do to get there. Obeying him is believing him and no less. Let us obey Jesus and not some sort of Christendom idea(s). Jesus' Gospel is our pathway, following him. Let your life nurture on the Word of Life, Jesus. Seek to understand our Father's will through Jesus and by the Holy Spirit.

Stephen Kendall · Nov 15, 2012

There is this tendency to view salvation through not sinning anymore and holding onto Jesus always. There is nothing wrong with that. There is a condition of your sincerity and obedience to Jesus. Just remember our vulnerability because we live in the flesh, to not rely on what we do, but obey Jesus and trust in what he can do. Always turn towards him and submit to our Father's will.

Tangible · Nov 15, 2012

Stephen Kendall said:
You believe in him and not what you can do to get there. Obeying him is believing him and no less. Let us obey Jesus and not some sort of Christendom idea(s). Jesus' Gospel is our pathway, following him. Let your life nurture on the Word of Life, Jesus. Seek to understand our Father's will through Jesus and by the Holy Spirit.

I wonder if you would articulate your belief of exactly what the Gospel of Jesus Christ is. It seems like you are confusing what we do (Law) with what God has done for us and for our salvation (Gospel).

Stephen Kendall said:
There is this tendency to view salvation through not sinning anymore and holding onto Jesus always. There is nothing wrong with that.

I think there is something very wrong with that. It's called works-righteousness. Salvation is not about our actions or behaviors. Salvation is a gift from God, by grace alone, through faith alone in Christ alone.

There is a condition of your sincerity and obedience to Jesus. Just remember our vulnerability because we live in the flesh, to not rely on what we do, but obey Jesus and trust in what he can do. Always turn towards him and submit to our Father's will.

You seem to be saying two different things at the same time. You say "there is a condition" to our salvation, that it depends on "your sincerity and obedience" yet you also say that our salvation depends upon what Jesus has done.

Which is it, since it can't be both?

bbbbbbb · Nov 15, 2012

Tangible said:
As opposed to ... ?

I don't think you're suggesting that we who are (apparently ) mentally capable are not saved entirely by the grace of God?

No, I certainly did not mean that at all. What I meant is that there are some who believe in a type of universalitic salvation such that in order for God to be "fair" He is required to save all those who otherwise would not or could not have faith in Jesus Christ. Thus, God does not save by grace, but by a form of legalistic necessity.

cuja1 · Nov 15, 2012

I'm not sure if I've got it right but through my own experience I can say that it is impossible to do any good on my own, at the same time, if left to my own devices I could do really really bad. So the best I can come up with, is when the Holy Spirit convicts me of something I must ask Jesus to forgive me and give me strength to change. In that sense there is a condition of salvation. If I don't turn from my sin when convicted I sense that I will be eternally condemned.

But there is another point. It is often told Christians to do this, that and the other but we are never told how. I would maintain that most of us can't even create the will t obey God on our own. For example, I struggled with smoking for years. Finally I asked God to GIVE ME THE WILL to stop smoking, b/c without the will to do so, I couldn't even begin to start and I couldn't create my own will to start either. 2 years later I finally kicked the habit.

My position then is that salvation is dependent upon following Jesus but ability to follow Jesus is dependent on Jesus. I'm still trying to live this out and perhaps God himself will prove me wrong but this is the best I cancome up with for now because everything else I've tried has fallen short.

Would love to hear others thoughts.

Albion · Nov 16, 2012

cuja1 said:
I'm not sure if I've got it right but through my own experience I can say that it is impossible to do any good on my own, at the same time, if left to my own devices I could do really really bad. So the best I can come up with, is when the Holy Spirit convicts me of something I must ask Jesus to forgive me and give me strength to change. In that sense there is a condition of salvation. If I don't turn from my sin when convicted I sense that I will be eternally condemned.

But there is another point. It is often told Christians to do this, that and the other but we are never told how. I would maintain that most of us can't even create the will t obey God on our own. For example, I struggled with smoking for years. Finally I asked God to GIVE ME THE WILL to stop smoking, b/c without the will to do so, I couldn't even begin to start and I couldn't create my own will to start either. 2 years later I finally kicked the habit.

You have very effectively shown why the facile claims of the "we have free will" crowd are not realistic. That POV sounds great on paper, but when compared with real people in real situations in real life, it falls flat on its face.

AHJE · Nov 16, 2012

Albion said:
You have very effectively shown why the facile claims of the "we have free will" crowd are not realistic. That POV sounds great on paper, but when compared with real people in real situations in real life, it falls flat on its face.

So you actually believe that man is not endowed by God with free will?

Man has the free will to seek God and knock at the door ... to ask for the grace necessary to live a life worthy of the call of God.

Man has the free will to pursue good and avoid evil.

Man has the free will to receive the grace of God or reject it.

Man has the free will to choose life or death (as the Word of God in Sacred Writing says).

Man has free will eventhough he is very very weak. But weakness does not negate his free will, just as ignorance does not negate your intellect.

God bless you.

Albion · Nov 16, 2012

Thanks for sharing your religious preferences.

AHJE · Nov 16, 2012

Albion said:
Thanks for sharing your religious preferences.

So is that a yes to my question? That you do deny that man has free will?

(BTW, I can't really hear the tone of your voice but ... do you use the word "religious" in a pejorative way?)

Stephen Kendall · Nov 17, 2012

Tangible said:
I wonder if you would articulate your belief of exactly what the Gospel of Jesus Christ is. It seems like you are confusing what we do (Law) with what God has done for us and for our salvation (Gospel).

I think there is something very wrong with that. It's called works-righteousness. Salvation is not about our actions or behaviors. Salvation is a gift from God, by grace alone, through faith alone in Christ alone.

You seem to be saying two different things at the same time. You say "there is a condition" to our salvation, that it depends on "your sincerity and obedience" yet you also say that our salvation depends upon what Jesus has done.

Which is it, since it can't be both?

The Gospel of Christ is his ministry to us and in effect also his chosen disciples' ministries. It is complex to learn, yet so simple to see. The big problem is in just believing & obeying him to start with, that makes salvation come smooth and understanding easier. Salvation is personal, between you and your Lord. It is a personal relationship where you are expected to do your part by stop sinning and be patience under the Lord (listening & obeying him). This is where many miss understanding salvation. Romans 14 may help understand that your relationship with the Father is unique. This is part of your salvation, is it not? (Romans 14:4)

Listen, how I believe is personal and not meant to try to stray others from their own beliefs. I share it to help others see the way that I can, yet not to make them different, just to enhance their understanding. They don't have to change. That matter is between their hearts and the Father.

If we want to please God (that we are born again), we stop sinning the best that we can and God knows us. Works or Faith, what about being real in faith and the fruit of it shows itself.

Jesus is our guide and sent us our helper, we work out our own salvation and become one with him and our Father, as well as with one another. It is all beautiful and never meant to create dogmas, theologies, sticking points or arguments. If I told you to sin a little and find your way to heaven by Christ, you should correct me. If I told you to stop sinning and believe and follow Christ, you attack me. Nonsense. Where has common sense and reason gone? If what I have said make sense and tells you to follow Jesus, then you are relying on Jesus and not your good works, but be warned it is Jesus who told you to do the good works.

Tangible · Nov 18, 2012

So in short, yes you believe in works-righteousness.

Albion · Nov 18, 2012

Stephen Kendall said:
If I told you to sin a little and find your way to heaven by Christ, you should correct me. If I told you to stop sinning and believe and follow Christ, you attack me. Nonsense.

If you HAD indeed said that and been attacked for it, you'd have a point. But it didn't happen.

Tangible · Nov 19, 2012

You're confusing me again. You start out saying that the Gospel is Christ's ministry, which I would like to have further explained. (That is, was Christ's ministry what he did for us and for our salvation, or are you speaking of following his preaching of the Law as a way to become righteous?)

Then you mention the disciple's ministry, which was to spread the Gospel but did not itself make up a part of the Gospel.

Then you appear to begin speaking about sanctification. The news that we are already and are becoming, and will some day be totally holy is indeed good news - Gospel - because God is sanctifying us by his Word. But to say that the process of sanctification is Gospel is to err in one's definition of the Gospel.

Non-denominational view of how to get to heaven.

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