No Compulsion or Not.

Ryal Kane · Apr 20, 2008

I try to be fairly open minded but personally I find the Islamic concept of death for apostasy to be appalling. I see it as a sign of weakness and arrogance of the religion that the idea exists that no one who is a Muslim could ever decide it wasn't right for them.

It has the feel of a a research trial where all data that doesn't conform to a presupposition is erased.
A religion that has full confidence that it is the truth, has no need to silence those who may criticize it.

elwill · Apr 20, 2008

Ryal Kane said:
I try to be fairly open minded but personally I find the Islamic concept of death for apostasy to be appalling. I see it as a sign of weakness and arrogance of the religion that the idea exists that no one who is a Muslim could ever decide it wasn't right for them.

i approciate that you trying to judge fairly with open minded , that's all we ask from you .
so , if you insist that we kill all apostates or if you think that muslims afraid to apostate because of punishment, if i supposed that you are right , so it's not your problem it's supposed to be muslims's problem.(whom allready muslims)

so according to nonmuslims (more important for you)

no one can be forced ever to join Islam, so it's telling anyone to think twice before joining, he must be 100% sure cause it's a one way choice, cause we want only strong believers. So you are free not to join, but to join you must be 100% determined. And if you want to commit apostasy afterwards you have three days to discuss and return back to Islam or the punishment, Or you can first immigrate to another non moslim country, but not allowed to return to the moslim country afterwards. Also note that this is only for adult moslims, children of course are not punished at all.

so from bold statements above , i see from my sight and (with all respect to yours) that this relegion is very strong.

seed757 · Apr 20, 2008

If I may be allowed to offer my perspective on the question posed ...

It may be possible that there may be some well meaning sisters and brothers who feel that they do hold the proper position on the matter of the treatment of apostates in Islam. However, it is equally possible that these same sisters and brothers attain such opinions based upon generations of unsound teaching and deficient interpretations. So if a person either lacks the proper sources or simply refuses to even consider them, then all sorts of dubious viewpoints can circulate throughout both the Muslim and non-Muslim worlds.

With that said, it is of my personal opinion (based on lengthy studies on the issue) that there is no punishment for apostasy in Islam. Primarily, because, there is no direct injuction for capital punishment in the Qur'an for apostasy. Also (as stated earlier) some of the hadith used to support such a position are considered to be weak or misinterpreted.

For more detail on the issue of apostasy in Islam, here are a couple of thorough links that anyone who is truly interested can look through:

http://www.islamicperspectives.com/Apostasy1.htm

http://islamicperspectives.com/PunishmentOfApostasy_Part2.html

Regards.

Futuwwa · Apr 20, 2008

No compulsion. So says the Quran. Any questions?

Druweid · Apr 20, 2008

dharmablues said:
According to the Quran, God does not force anyone to convert into Islam.

According to the Hadith, Muhammad ordered the execution of those who leave Islam.

So which one is it, no compulsion or either you stay in Islam or die?

Based on my own personal experiences, I believe this is widely known, accepted, and practiced by the majority of Muslims. I have had many, many religious discussions with a variety of Muslims. Most were a little "spooked" that I referred to myself as a Pagan, but once the details of my beliefs were revealed, they seemed to have a better regard for me. Some put it as me being, "a seeker unopposed to Islam." All in all, I felt I was treated with a great deal of dignity and respect, and wasn't compelled to learn or accept one bit more than I chose.

Respectfully,
-- Druweid

ChildishFears · Apr 20, 2008

elwill said:
i approciate that you trying to judge fairly with open minded , that's all we ask from you .
so , if you insist that we kill all apostates or if you think that muslims afraid to apostate because of punishment, if i supposed that you are right , so it's not your problem it's supposed to be muslims's problem.(whom allready muslims)

so according to nonmuslims (more important for you)

no one can be forced ever to join Islam, so it's telling anyone to think twice before joining, he must be 100% sure cause it's a one way choice, cause we want only strong believers. So you are free not to join, but to join you must be 100% determined. And if you want to commit apostasy afterwards you have three days to discuss and return back to Islam or the punishment, Or you can first immigrate to another non moslim country, but not allowed to return to the moslim country afterwards. Also note that this is only for adult moslims, children of course are not punished at all.

so from bold statements above , i see from my sight and (with all respect to yours) that this relegion is very strong.

What about if you were born in a Muslim family so you were pretty much labeled a Muslim and the teachings were so ingrained in your mind that you assumed it was the correct religion so you accepted it. But you found that another belief system was you felt was the Truth...is it really rational to say that person should be murdered for a change in belief system?? If you don't believe in the validity of Islam you can't just "turn back" unless you want the apostate to lie to save themselves from some primitive punishment. Would you lie and say Paganism or Christianity or Judaism is the only True religion and deny yours to save yourself?

ChildishFears · Apr 20, 2008

seed757 said:
If I may be allowed to offer my perspective on the question posed ...

It may be possible that there may be some well meaning sisters and brothers who feel that they do hold the proper position on the matter of the treatment of apostates in Islam. However, it is equally possible that these same sisters and brothers attain such opinions based upon generations of unsound teaching and deficient interpretations. So if a person either lacks the proper sources or simply refuses to even consider them, then all sorts of dubious viewpoints can circulate throughout both the Muslim and non-Muslim worlds.

With that said, it is of my personal opinion (based on lengthy studies on the issue) that there is no punishment for apostasy in Islam. Primarily, because, there is no direct injuction for capital punishment in the Qur'an for apostasy. Also (as stated earlier) some of the hadith used to support such a position are considered to be weak or misinterpreted.

For more detail on the issue of apostasy in Islam, here are a couple of thorough links that anyone who is truly interested can look through:

http://www.islamicperspectives.com/Apostasy1.htm

http://islamicperspectives.com/PunishmentOfApostasy_Part2.html

Regards.

I'll read through the links, if there is no death penalty for apostasy then great, that's the way it should be. It's evil and barbaric.

but Adeeb, your fellow Muslim is completely wrong about the punishment of apostasy?

"If you are already a Muslim and have the truth, then in an Islamic state the punishment for apostasy is death. This is the majority view of all the major scholars of the past and present. There have been some scholars who placed conditions on the penalty, such as physically taking up arms against the Muslims or joining a hostile enemy. Some modern muslims have completely rejected this law, arguing that the hadith is weak and not authentic based on what they see as contradictions. Among the major hadith scholars, there has never been any doubt about its authenticity."

Osiris · Apr 20, 2008

Futuwwa said:
No compulsion. So says the Quran. Any questions?

There is no compulsion in nicotine so says big tobacco. Any questions?

elwill · Apr 20, 2008

ChildishFears said:
What about if you were born in a Muslim family so you were pretty much labeled a Muslim and the teachings were so ingrained in your mind that you assumed it was the correct religion so you accepted it. But you found that another belief system was you felt was the Truth...is it really rational to say that person should be murdered for a change in belief system?? If you don't believe in the validity of Islam you can't just "turn back" unless you want the apostate to lie to save themselves from some primitive punishment. Would you lie and say Paganism or Christianity or Judaism is the only True religion and deny yours to save yourself?

originally , the scholars of islam are differs about punishments for apostate because quran never mentioned any punishment against apostates .
but scholars whom think that the punishment for apostate is death are depending on just one hadeeth .
(who change his relegion kill him )
so i just wanna to quote verse from quran to show you why our prphet(pbuh) threat the death for whom change his relegion
God say in the quran
A section of the people of the book say: believe in the morning what is revealed to the believers, but reject it at the end of the day; perchance they may (themselves) turn back

so there were reasons for this punishment in thier time , the prophet consider thier acts as a treason .
so, this is the only hadeeth about punishment of apostates which may be misunderstanded by some muslims .
beside , there's one apostates from islam in the time of our prophet (pbuh) and he let him leave.

so that generally i don't think that there is punishments for who born muslims then apostate

and God is most knower

seed757 · Apr 20, 2008

Osiris said:
There is no compulsion in nicotine so says big tobacco. Any questions?

Yeah, I've got a question.

Can big tobacco back up that statement with any sources or references? Or is it just talk?

Osiris · Apr 20, 2008

seed757 said:
Yeah, I've got a question.

Can big tobacco back up that statement with any sources or references? Or is it just talk?

it is just talk. reality says otherwise.

Ramona · Apr 20, 2008

((((((Seed))))))

It is and has always been so good to have you here.

dharmablues · Apr 20, 2008

elwill said:
what is the important of this question ?
allready our God not command us to kill nonmuslims , so what is you point ?

Why can you not answer the question? I am only testing your obedience. That is it.

dharmablues · Apr 20, 2008

Bushmaster said:
Jews adhere to their respective Scriptures but are not ruled by theocracy, and further God's commandments in OT can be traced to local isolated events....

Well then answer me this. Considering Israel was once a theocracy, was it acceptable that they use to kill apostates?

dharmablues · Apr 20, 2008

LittleLambofJesus said:
How would they accomplish that without a temple/santurary and priesthood which YHWH destroyed 2000yrs ago?

And if the Jews destroyed the mosque, and rebuilt the temple, then what. Would you accept this?

dharmablues · Apr 20, 2008

Futuwwa said:
No compulsion. So says the Quran. Any questions?

Then why do you have a sword in your hand? Is this some front?

Secundulus · Apr 20, 2008

dharmablues said:
Then why do you have a sword in your hand? Is this some front?

Futuwaa is straightforward and I think you can trust that he believes what he says is true.

Adeeb · Apr 20, 2008

Osiris said:
They had the truth? Sorry, but they didn't... them having the truth is just your opinion. Those who claim to have the truth, are far from it...

This is the worst line of reasoning... according to you they are going to go to hell in the end, correct? Why kill him? They are going to get their punishment. If you kill him, then they should be free from the after life punishment... if not, then you should go to hell along with him for committing murder.

Reality could be that your religion is wrong (and the probability that is is wrong is really high)... and you(in general) are killing people because you think they do not deserve to live based on the fact that they reject your 'holy' book.

If your religion is wrong, this would be liken to killing someone because they reject Harry Potter. Nice.

A person living in an Islamic state where the constitution is the shariah (Islamic Law), where the very foundation is Islam cannot be allowed to live after having Islam and rejecting it, because they are going against the very purpose of the state. It would be contradictory to have a state founded solely on Islam and then have people who openly reject Islam free members of society, because rejecting Islam means rejecting the state, and rejecting the state is worthy of capital punishment in our view. Remember we do not share the same principle as you in terms of how we believe a nation should be run. You have your views, we have our views and you have your countries we have our countries.

As I also pointed out earlier, I have never heard of anyone in history in an Islamic state killed for leaving Islam. Why? because no one is foolish enough to publicly admit that they have left Islam, and that is the whole point of the law, to prevent people from publicly denouncing Islam. You may say that this is limiting a person's freedom to think or choose but remember the religion and state is synonymous in this context, so anything that creates problems with Islam automatically creates problems with the state, and problems within the state cannot be tolerated, hence apostates are given capital punishment.

Nathan45 · Apr 20, 2008

seed757 said:
Yeah, I've got a question.

Can big tobacco back up that statement with any sources or references? Or is it just talk?

well, it's just talk.

as for Islam-- irregardless of what the koran says or doesn't say-- they tax you if you don't join and they kill you if you leave. At least that's what they do in some parts of the east, from what I understand. And if you think that this variation is not true islam, then it is high time to apostasy, is it not? That is, unless you fear death...

No compulsion at all, right?

Nathan45 · Apr 20, 2008

Adeeb said:
A person living in an Islamic state where the constitution is the shariah (Islamic Law), where the very foundation is Islam cannot be allowed to live after having Islam and rejecting it, because they are going against the very purpose of the state. It would be contradictory to have a state founded solely on Islam and then have people who openly reject Islam free members of society, because rejecting Islam means rejecting the state, and rejecting the state is worthy of capital punishment in our view. Remember we do not share the same principle as you in terms of how we believe a nation should be run. You have your views, we have our views and you have your countries we have our countries.

As I also pointed out earlier, I have never heard of anyone in history in an Islamic state killed for leaving Islam. Why? because no one is foolish enough to publicly admit that they have left Islam, and that is the whole point of the law, to prevent people from publicly denouncing Islam. You may say that this is limiting a person's freedom to think or choose but remember the religion and state is synonymous in this context, so anything that creates problems with Islam automatically creates problems with the state, and problems within the state cannot be tolerated, hence apostates are given capital punishment.

I understand your point of view--however I think a theocracy is a terrible type of government and that the laws of sharia are an abomination.

So my question is that if ( this variety of ) Islam is so closely associated with the state, why follow it all? Why not use a more modern system of government?

edit: and furthermore, why should anyone in the west want to follow this religion, if they are not interested in theocracy and prefer other types of government?

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