Necessity of evil

durangodawood · Apr 24, 2023

QvQ said:
If I offer two flavors of icecream, vanilla and chocolate, it appears you have a choice however I have ultimately decided your choice. You don't have free will because you do not have the ability to create strawberry or the means to acquire it. I also may have instilled in you a tendency to prefer chocolate and instilled in another to prefer vanilla. I also may have instilled the "no" to icecream in others of my creation.
Providence is an important component of Aquinas writings on free will. Because of the boundaries imposed, ultimately, free will is not free.

Ive never thought of free will as requiring the capacity to manifest impossible things, like make strawberry ice cream where there's no strawberries.

Free will is free enough if it can choose among possible things.

For sure conditioning and habit chooses "for us" often. And our inner agency is easily overwhelmed and must be cultivated.

zoidar · Apr 24, 2023

Mark Quayle said:
To me, to say he is 'outside of time' doesn't mean he is not immanent, even to be experienced, within time. But that he is not subject to it, is at least Biblical. He may 'subject himself' to anything he chooses, but we really don't know what it means to say even that; certainly he is not 'owned' by (or obligated to) any fact external to himself.

My dad who is somewhat of a Christian, doesn't believe God hears all our thoughts. It's like he thinks he can hide things from God. Not fully sure what he believes, but sure needs to meet Christ.

QvQ · Apr 24, 2023

durangodawood said:
Free will is free enough if it can choose among possible things.

For sure conditioning and habit chooses "for us" often. And our inner agency is easily overwhelmed and must be cultivated.

Exactly
In the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve chose between possible things. Those possible things were created by God.

The thread is about the necessity of Evil. Evil was not in the Garden, therefore not necessary.

Who created the automobile? God did. God created all the materials and God created man with the capacity for art.

I am not certain but I think that is formally called Providence, the totality of possible things, the Act of God. We are bound by space and time so the possibilities at any given moment in any given space are circumscribed and prescribed by the Will of God.

Evil is only in this realm. It is not necessary. It is a temporary, temporal condition 'til kingdom come.

durangodawood · Apr 24, 2023

QvQ said:
Exactly
In the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve chose between possible things. Those possible things were created by God.

That how the story reads on the face of it. If the choice was not Adam or Eve's but was someone elses, then the whole story becomes a complete hash.

QvQ said:
Who created the automobile? God did. God created all the materials and God created man with the capacity for art.

This seems to contradict what you said about Adam and Eve. Sure, God created the world around us (according to the story), but its up to us humans what we make out of it.

QvQ · Apr 24, 2023

durangodawood said:
That how the story reads on the face of it. If the choice was not Adam or Eve's but was someone elses, then the whole story becomes a complete hash

If I invite you to lunch and give you a choice of steak or chicken, those are my choices ultimately. You don't have any choice except what I have chosen, what I have made available, based on my own good pleasure.

durangodawood said:
This seems to contradict what you said about Adam and Eve. Sure, God created the world around us (according to the story), but its up to us humans what we make out of it.

No, I can grow pecans here but I can't grow lemons. The world around us is not what we make of it, it is what it makes of us.

Adam and Eve were circumscribed and prescribed by the totality of facts. The tree was God's creation and so was the serpeant and Adam and Eve being there all together, that is Providence or the Will of God.

I once decided I was master of my fate and captain of my soul. What a shipwreck that was!

durangodawood · Apr 24, 2023

QvQ said:
If I invite you to lunch and give you a choice of steak or chicken, those are my choices ultimately. You don't have any choice except what I have chosen, what I have made available, based on my own good pleasure.

I was agreeing with you about that (I think). The world we're presented with is not our choice. What to do about that world is to some extent our actual choice imo. I cant choose salmon. But chicken or steak can be my choice. (This sounds like a boring corporate dinner. Can we go somewhere else?).

QvQ said:
I once decided I was master of my fate and captain of my soul. What a shipwreck that was!

People dont always make the best choices. Failure is an option, as you apparently found out.

Mark Quayle · Apr 24, 2023

Mark Quayle said:
I'm saying physics —and I'm not talking about current physics models, here— does not allow for randomness and chance, because there is no such thing, except in our own minds. Everything is caused, except for first cause.

durangodawood said:
Ok, how exactly do you know this?

Here's a quote from Bing: "The law of causation is a fundamental principle of science that states that every event has a cause and effect relationship. It is a necessary assumption for scientific investigation because it allows scientists to make predictions about future events based on past observations and experiments."

There's a lot more to it than just that, but that'll do for now. There are, of course, objections to the above, but even in the objecting they find it necessary to show 'why' and 'because'.

QvQ · Apr 24, 2023

durangodawood said:
People dont always make the best choices. Failure is an option, as you apparently found out.

At the time, I didn't know best choice.
For a while, my choice was what benefitted me. That produced strife and conflict with my fellow man.
Then I decided to choose what led to wealth, health and peace but there are all those sayings, "the best laid plans of mice and men" "the road to hell is paved with good intentions." When there are so many folk sayings about a course of conduct, best examine the premise
So I decided to do what the Bible said (Sola Scriptura) with the aid of the Holy Spirit
That works.

A choice is an opportunity. A person can choose an opportunity but a person cannot create an opportunity.
Bootstrapping choices is not an option. A person cannot create a choice.

Failure is not a question of choice. Rain, for instance, is not at man's command. A man can be successful in business yet if the company fails, then he is out of a job. Failure is often due to factors beyond man's control.

disciple Clint · Apr 24, 2023

jayem said:
Well, what does Deuteronomy 6:4 mean?

Hear O' Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one.

And BTW, are there not unitarian Christians?

Your argument is based purely on faith in one particular interpretation of the Bible and religious tradition. And as I said, I won't argue with faith. But can you not think outside the box? Or maybe outside the book?

This has been argued for thousands of years by people who like to think outside the box and yet we still have one God in three persons and there are many reasons why.

durangodawood · Apr 25, 2023

Mark Quayle said:
Mark Quayle said:
I'm saying physics —and I'm not talking about current physics models, here— does not allow for randomness and chance, because there is no such thing, except in our own minds. Everything is caused, except for first cause.

Here's a quote from Bing: "The law of causation is a fundamental principle of science that states that every event has a cause and effect relationship. It is a necessary assumption for scientific investigation because it allows scientists to make predictions about future events based on past observations and experiments."

There's a lot more to it than just that, but that'll do for now. There are, of course, objections to the above, but even in the objecting they find it necessary to show 'why' and 'because'.

Many physicists have no problem calling the timing of radioactive decay "random". So Im not at all deterred by Bing.

I would think God believers would have the least problem with genuine free will, as it can simply be called a gift bestowed on us from the Divine. A "miracle" of sorts not necessarily disclosed to us by scientific investigation.

Further, Id think Bible believers would demand genuine free will, as the stories would feel frozen and pointless if its just God - or no one - making all the choices rather than the actual people involved.

Mark Quayle · Apr 25, 2023

durangodawood said:
Many physicists have no problem calling the timing of radioactive decay "random". So Im not at all deterred by Bing.

I would think God believers would have the least problem with genuine free will, as it can simply be called a gift bestowed on us from the Divine. A "miracle" of sorts not necessarily disclosed to us by scientific investigation.

Further, Id think Bible believers would demand genuine free will, as the stories would feel frozen and pointless if its just God - or no one - making all the choices rather than the actual people involved.

Of course they will refer to 'random' and 'chance', but if pressed, many, if not most, will admit there is no such thing, but they only use it to mean that we can't predict, or don't know, the cause(s). The notion of 'chance' determining anything, or of anything happening 'randomly', is logically self-contradictory.

durangodawood · Apr 25, 2023

Mark Quayle said:
Of course they will refer to 'random' and 'chance', but if pressed, many, if not most, will admit there is no such thing, but they only use it to mean that we can't predict, or don't know, the cause(s). The notion of 'chance' determining anything, or of anything happening 'randomly', is logically self-contradictory.

Of course? These people arent idiots. Theres a vast difference between "random" and "unknown". Regardless, the state of physical science can be sidestepped if it will suck all the oxygen out of the discussion. Its not critical.

As I noted theres an alternate possible explanation for free will. Namely: its a divine gift. This is much more appealing, and sensible to the way the Bible reads, than some grand puppet show.

zoidar · Apr 25, 2023

Mark Quayle said:
Of course they will refer to 'random' and 'chance', but if pressed, many, if not most, will admit there is no such thing, but they only use it to mean that we can't predict, or don't know, the cause(s). The notion of 'chance' determining anything, or of anything happening 'randomly', is logically self-contradictory.

From your view I don't understand how you can even say God has free will. He chooses to do what He does from who He is. So then His character is what determines His choices, and God has not created His character, so then there is no free will.

Can you scientifically explain how God can have free will?

QvQ · Apr 25, 2023

"Random" is code word for "We Can't Do the Math...yet."

zoidar · Apr 25, 2023

QvQ said:
"Random" is code word for "We Can't Do the Math...yet."

A bit like science can't explain the cause of creation ...yet.

Edit: The point being is that science never will be able to, so science has it's limits and we can't go to science to get the answer to these questions.

Robban · Apr 25, 2023

zoidar said:
From your view I don't understand how you can even say God has free will. He chooses to do what He does from who He is. So then His character is what detetmines His choices, and God has not created His character, so then there is no free will.

Can you scientifically explain how God can have free will?

"So He made man in His own image............."

Free will, the ability to reason and a sense of morality.

"And God happened upon Balaam........"
(Numbers 23:4)

To the evil prophet Balaam, God "happened".

Such is the hallmark of evil and unholiness is an attitude of "it just happened"

In Holiness nothing is coincidental every event is significant and purposefull.

(The Chassidic Masters)

zoidar · Apr 25, 2023

Robban said:
"So He made man in His own image............."

Free will, the ability to reason and a sense of morality.

That's not free will from my perspective.

Robban said:
"And God happened upon Balaam........"
(Numbers 23:4)

To the evil prophet Balaam, God "happened".

Such is the hallmark of evil and unholiness is an attitude of "it just happened"

In Holiness nothing is coincidental every event is significant and purposefull.

(The Chassidic Masters)

When I say "free will" I mean "libertarian free will". To be able to choose what you want is not free will. Free will is to be able to will what you want to choose.

Libertarianism (metaphysics) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

QvQ · Apr 25, 2023

zoidar said:
When I say "free will" I mean "libertarian free will". To be able to choose what you want is not free will. Free will is to be able to will what you want to choose.

You cannot "will" what you want to choose. A person cannot create a choice. The choices are baked in to the particular facts of a situation. and as a prisoner of space and time, you are bound by those facts and that situation.
However, with God, all things are possible

zoidar said:
From your view I don't understand how you can even say God has free will. He chooses to do what He does from who He is. So then His character is what determines His choices, and God has not created His character, so then there is no free will.

And I am not an automobile.
All things are possible for God. God can by His will manifest all possible and impossible things. God can create possible things that are only part of creation but not a reflection of or on His character.
God created demons but God is not a demon.

QvQ · Apr 25, 2023

durangodawood said:
As I noted theres an alternate possible explanation for free will. Namely: its a divine gift. This is much more appealing, and sensible to the way the Bible reads, than some grand puppet show.

The basic argument which has been raging for 500 years is the Sovereignty of God.
It is spectrum from absolute free will to absolute God's Will.
It is fundamental how a person is responsible and to whom and for what.

Ah, no, it is not a puppet show. To me, it is a dialogue between God and man.

jayem · Apr 25, 2023

disciple Clint said:
This has been argued for thousands of years by people who like to think outside the box and yet we still have one God in three persons and there are many reasons why.

Your assertion is based purely on faith in the workings of a committee way back in 325 CE. Of course, you are perfectly entitled to your beliefs. But if there are so many good reasons for a triune God, why are there non-trinitarian Christian denominations? True, they're a minority of Christians, but they do exist. Apart from Unitarians and Unitarian Universalists we have Oneness Pentecostals, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Scientists, the LDS (not considered to be Christians as per CF policy,) and many Society of Friends meetings. Not to mention that the other Abrahamic religions--Jews and Muslims--are both strongly one God, as one personage. And then there are the Catholics. Who revere and worship Mary as a divine intercessor. Mary isn't on God's level. Catholics aren't quadritarian. But they're sort of trinitarian + 1.

Why does God allow all this variation and confusion?

Necessity of evil

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