Neanderthals

The Barbarian · Nov 14, 2022

No. That was a conclusion by a dentist who fancied himself a paleontologist. Rickets is a disease that is characterized by weak bones, often leading to bowed legs. And Neanderthal bones were much more robust than our own. He merely assumed the bowed legs of Neanderthals were caused by rickets.

What he assumed was that Neanderthals had rickets because their legs tended to be bowed. And that's risible, considering that their bones are much more robust than our own. Being a dentist, I suppose he didn't know how that works. He was speculating about things he really doesn't understand.

BobRyan said:
Notice it said "many" not all. It was not a claim that all cases were problems with rickets.

In fact, there are no Neanderthal skeletons that show signs of rickets.

The dentist just got it completely wrong.

atpollard · Nov 14, 2022

The Barbarian said:
The dentist just got it completely wrong.

What are you trying to say?
Stop beating around the bush and just spit it out!

The Barbarian · Nov 14, 2022

atpollard said:
What are you trying to say?

See above. You would think even a dentist would know better than that.

BobRyan · Nov 16, 2022

The Barbarian said:
In fact, there are no Neanderthal skeletons that show signs of rickets.

That is a pretty funny statement...

It's like saying "All neanderthals had excellent healthcare.. yep! every one of them"

The Barbarian · Nov 16, 2022

In fact, there are no Neanderthal skeletons that show signs of rickets.

BobRyan said:
That is a pretty funny statement...

It's just a fact.

Rickets does not produce a Neandertal, or Homo erectus morphology; it is clear from many sources (Reader 1981; Tattersall 1995) that the original Neandertal skeleton was unlike any previously known, even in a century in which rickets was a common disease.

Evidence of rickets is easily detectable, especially on the growing ends of the long bones of the body. Radiology courses routinely teach the symptoms. It has never (so far as I know) been detected in Neandertals or Homo erectus.

Even Virchow did not claim rickets as a sole cause. Virchow in 1872 decided that the first Neandertal Man fossil had had rickets in childhood, head injuries in middle age, and chronic arthritis in old age. A whole population of such people strains credibility, to say the least, although Lubenow says that this diagnosis "is as valid today as when [Virchow] first made it".

The long bones of Neandertals, like those of rickets victims, are often more curved than normal, but rickets causes a sideways curvature of the femur, while Neandertal femurs curve backwards (Klein 1989).

Humans could hardly have stayed in shelter all the time; food gathering would have required them to spend a lot of time outside (and probably a lot more time than most modern urban humans).

The most extreme differences from modern humans (H. erectus) are mostly found in regions such as Africa and Java, which were always tropical; the reverse of what would be predicted by Lubenow's hypothesis.

Creationists usually claim that most of the fossil record was laid down by the Noahaic Flood. And yet there are hundreds of fossils of "post-Flood" humans, who supposedly lived in a period of low population and little fossilization. Why, underneath these post-Flood humans, do we not find far larger numbers of fossilized pre-Flood humans?

Creationist Arguments: Neandertals

www.talkorigins.org

BobRyan said:
It's like saying "All neanderthals had excellent healthcare.. yep! every one of them"

No. For example, they sometimes had crippling arthritis and badly decayed teeth. The rickets story was just a dumb idea that any physician would have laughed at, given the fact that Neanderthals have extraordinarily robust skeletons,

coffee4u · Nov 18, 2022

FaithT said:
Human or non human?

God created angels, animals and humans. Since they are neither angels nor animals, they are humans.

Sheila Davis · Nov 30, 2022

FaithT said:
Human or non human?

Just curious, are the non-human those that science says did not evolve into the hominoids?

Sheila Davis · Nov 30, 2022

From the scientific / evolution point of view there had to be a single / first humanoid/homo- noid (original)

Hominid Species Timeline

Three human-like species lived side-by-side in ancient Africa

Two million years ago, Africa was home to three human-like species, new discoveries reveal.

www.bbc.com

Neanderthals

Neanderthals are an extinct species of hominids that were the closest relatives to modern human beings. They lived throughout Europe and parts of Asia from

www.history.com

Humans Evolved From A Common Ancestor That Appeared 6 Million Years Ago

Throughout our evolution timeline, we coexisted with several early human species and descended from a common ancestor 6 million years ago.

www.discovermagazine.com

From the biblical point of view

All humanoids are descendants from the first man and woman. Angelic tampering brought about changes from what God created. (Not supported by Young Earth creationist)

The Barbarian · Dec 1, 2022

Generally speaking, humans are any members of the genus Homo. Hence H. habilis, H. erectus, H. neanderthalis (if they actually are a separate species) H. ergaster, and so on are all humans. Physical anthropologists usually refer to the humans living today as "anatomically modern humans", which means that humans today are a particular race of a species that might include Neanderthals, Denesovans, and at least one other yet-unnamed race.

Semper-Fi · Dec 1, 2022

A “species” is simply a “group of living organisms consisting of
similar individuals capable of exchanging genes or interbreeding”

They were all able to exchange genes and produce offspring—
thus making them all the same species.

The Barbarian · Dec 1, 2022

Semper-Fi said:
A “species” is simply a “group of living organisms consisting of
similar individuals capable of exchanging genes or interbreeding”

They were all able to exchange genes and produce offspring—
thus making them all the same species.

Not quite. A good number of separate species that never interbreed in the wild can be induced to interbreed in captivity. Hence lion/tiger hybrids. However, since Neandertals, anatomically modern humans, and Denesovans interbred "in the wild", they are likely races of a single species. There is some evidence that H. erectus and other species of humans could interbreed with H. sapiens, but not much of it.

Apparently, Neanderthals/Denesovans interbred with a more ancient "superarchaic" human population probably not our own species, and some of those genes were transferred to anatomically modern humans by Neanderthals/Denesovans. It's becoming clearer, but a lot more work is required.

Jonaitis · Dec 1, 2022

Semper-Fi said:
A “species” is simply a “group of living organisms consisting of
similar individuals capable of exchanging genes or interbreeding”

They were all able to exchange genes and produce offspring—
thus making them all the same species.

Well, they found that their offspring usually do not come out healthy. Matter of fact, much of genetic variance they contributed to our DNA consists in defective genes in application. It is believed that diabetes, for example, was inherited from the Neanderthals, as well as Crohns disease.

Semper-Fi · Dec 1, 2022

In Light of Genetics... Adam, Eve, and the Creation/Fall

https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/a704d4_f5f5f851384f4767889ad115b1e52f65.pdf

Semper-Fi · Dec 1, 2022

spe·cies
[ˈspēsēz, ˈspēSHēz]

NOUN

BIOLOGY
a group of living organisms consisting of similar individuals capable of exchanging genes or interbreeding.

Sheila Davis · Dec 1, 2022

Semper-Fi said:
In Light of Genetics... Adam, Eve, and the Creation/Fall

https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/a704d4_f5f5f851384f4767889ad115b1e52f65.pdf

Genesis 11:6 KJV: And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

The Barbarian · Dec 2, 2022

Semper-Fi said:
In Light of Genetics... Adam, Eve, and the Creation/Fall

https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/a704d4_f5f5f851384f4767889ad115b1e52f65.pdf

Sanford seems to be unaware of the Christian perspective on Creation. No wonder he's confused. The YE creationist revision of scripture is no older than the last century, founded by a Seventh-Day Adventist "prophetess." Would you like to learn where Sanford got that new doctrine?

The Barbarian · Dec 2, 2022

Semper-Fi said:
spe·cies
[ˈspēsēz, ˈspēSHēz]

NOUN

BIOLOGY
a group of living organisms consisting of similar individuals capable of exchanging genes or interbreeding.

Unfortunately, it's not that simple. Lions and tigers are separate species and don't interbreed even when they live in the same areas. But we can induce them to interbreed in captivity. That doesn't make them the same species. Biologist have always known this. Darwin pointed it out, noting that evolution makes it inevitable that such cases must exist at least temporarily. There isn't a nice, clean definition of "species", precisely because of evolution.

Semper-Fi · Dec 2, 2022

The Barbarian said:
There isn't a nice, clean definition of "species", precisely because of evolution.

Maybe you can convince all the dictionaries to change their definitions then.

Semper-Fi · Dec 2, 2022

The Barbarian said:
Sanford seems to be unaware of the Christian perspective on Creation.

He did not comment on how old the earth was as far as I can tell.
What he does go into is how long man has been here.

The Barbarian · Dec 2, 2022

Semper-Fi said:
He did not comment on how old the earth was as far as I can tell.
What he does go into is how long man has been here.

Nope. No such thing. Some people have tried to take various things out of context in scripture to figure out how long. But it's all vain pilpul. He does not say how long it's been since Adam and Eve; He doesn't even say if they were H. sapiens or some other species that gave rise to anatomically modern humans.

Neanderthals

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