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Discussion NAR when did it go wrong, what faults can you list?

AGTG

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This is an excellent question because there are supernatural manifestations that can come forth and deceive people. After learning how this works, I made a video exposing what's been going on. It's witchcraft which goes forth through submission and authority. When you submit to any ministry that is operating in hypocrisy (ala 1 Tim. 4:1-2) you will come under the seducing spirits at work in it and the willful witchcraft prayers of the insincere ministers. Check out a video I made on this very thing using footage of ministries at work. It lays it all out how this stuff happens:

 
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ToBeLoved

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And you are concerned with a literal obedience to Moses' law and with church dominion in government?
I sure would. If you think about it people could be stoned like the adulterer that Jesus saved from being stoned. Now if Jesus does not want us under law.

The law was for the Israelite's God didn't put the whole world under the law. It was for religious reasons and to give them a base for values.

If all people were under the law, that would force all people to be under God's law. Do you realize how many people would hate God because of that?
 
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ToBeLoved

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And you are concerned with a literal obedience to Moses' law and with church dominion in government?
You are not? Forcing people to love God and worship Him?

God Himself doesn't want that. He gives us free-choice, so is it Godly to force people?
 
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Biblicist

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When he started his show on GodTV I was told by someone about this "new and greatest thing from God", so I finally replaced my dead satellite box and sat down to look at what was happening. It did not take me all that long to lose interest where my wife continued on for about four hours, but after maybe an hour I figured that this chap was nothing special and I had seen his type of ministry before - where the hype seems to outweigh any discernible substance.

I was certainly intrigued by his tattoos as I presumed that his previous life (before he was saved) must have been pretty rough and tumble but I was definitely shocked to find out that he went crazy with his tatoos while he was a professing Christian.
 
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ToBeLoved

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My personal opinion, which may be way off is that Bentley was chosen because he would reach a certain audience that maybe the others could not reach. I don't know that for a fact, but that is what I think
 
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StanJ

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Indeed the gifts of the Holy Spirit are still in effect today, contrary to what many who are called cessationists tried to teach.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Indeed the gifts of the Holy Spirit are still in effect today, contrary to what many who are called cessationists tried to teach.
They are. But I think that we can see that some of these extreme manifestations are not the Holy Spirit. We do not have a God of confusion.
 
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StanJ

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They are. But I think that we can see that some of these extreme manifestations are not the Holy Spirit. We do not have a God of confusion.
Yes, Paul himself teaches that order also involves not drawing attention to one's self. Laughter in the spirit is one thing but sounding like a pig or a dog or anything else is absolutely ludicrous and it's nothing more than an unchecked spirit. "The spirit of the Prophet is subject to the Prophet"
 
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jiminpa

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I don't have the time to go point to point on that right now. Hopefully, I will in a day or two. For now I will just say that most of what you posted is non-sequeter as far as I can see.
 
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Biblicist

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My personal opinion, which may be way off is that Bentley was chosen because he would reach a certain audience that maybe the others could not reach. I don't know that for a fact, but that is what I think
One of the traps that those of us who stand against NARzie teachings, is that it can be easy to fail to recognise that there are many fine Believers who have succumbed to their teachings. Many may have simply found themselves within a congregation that has slowly adopted NARzie principles and unless they are well grounded in the Word then it can be easy to give way to their teachings.

Others who may live in smaller town may have discovered that the only church in town that seems to be half alive could be a NARzie congregation, so they may decide that where the other church/s in town are pretty dead that the NARzie one could be a better choice. There’s a NARzie congregation not far from me where I happen to know a few of the people, where in my opinion, they are Believers of good repute and character but for some reason they have been prepared to accept the more recent inroads by NARzism.

There are of course those who I would deem to be type who would fall for every shonky NARzie celebrity who comes into town, where once a particular NARzie celebrity falls, they say, “Oh well, we’ve learnt from their experiences” where they then move on to the next one until he falls, where they continue along this pathway until they reach the grave.
 
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AGTG

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I don't have the time to go point to point on that right now. Hopefully, I will in a day or two. For now I will just say that most of what you posted is non-sequeter as far as I can see.

I know what this movement is like. Being aware of their philosophies, practices, and theology has allowed me to prove their actions oppose scripture on point after point. I'm not expecting you to rebut, I'm hoping your reasonable enough to recognize how scriptures defy this movement clearly.

And if it defies scripture, it defies Jesus, and if it defies Jesus, it's antichrist.
 
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AGTG

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I don't have the time to go point to point on that right now. Hopefully, I will in a day or two. For now I will just say that most of what you posted is non-sequeter as far as I can see.

One of the first things submitting yourself to manipulative, hypocritical ministries who are overrun with seducing spirits will bring is spiritual blindness. They hate it when people use their reasoning skills, it's a threat to their control.
 
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ToBeLoved

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I don't have the time to go point to point on that right now. Hopefully, I will in a day or two. For now I will just say that most of what you posted is non-sequeter as far as I can see.
Well I hope that your reply will be thorough dealing with each point in detail. I will be interested to read it once it is posted.
 
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ToBeLoved

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This is so true Bibs. I'm so glad you added this.
 
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jiminpa

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^Nice sounding words, but I have enough respect for the scriptures to apply them in context, and toward things those you are accusing are actually doing and not based on hearsay and gossip.

So when I have a little more time I will specifically address your post, assuming that I actually get the time.

For now I just wanted to make it clear to the forum that I find most of your citations out of context or unfounded. I will try to address it better soon.
 
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jiminpa

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So somehow wanting more of what God is offering is like rejecting God's provision?
Do you have examples of this? It also warns against accepting false criticism for holding fast to the scriptures
Mark 12:38-40 warns against leaders who devour widow's estates.

Many of these ministries are known for their aggressive fundraising, including encouraging followers to consider "estate planning" in offering their financial support.
Again, do you have examples of them demanding the homes of widows and then not providing for those widows? If they do this, then the ones who do it are in jeopardy. If you have a problem with teaching on tithing then you need to take that up with the Author, because Jesus told the pharisees that they should have not only tithed but taken care of widows too.
You must now establish that they, 1. are sons of Hell, 2. are making disciples of themselves and not Jesus. The problem here is that the NAR people I've seen always put Jesus above themselves.
So you criticize them for submitting to an accountability structure, but if they did not have anyone that they are accountable to then you would call them lone rangers. They can't win in this one against anyone who is fault-finding.
Again, the worker is worthy of his hire. They can't constantly lose thousands of dollars, and never bring any money in. People want others to work for free and not pay their bills and feed their families. I get that at work when someone says that my company charges too much. What they are really saying is that I am not worthy of my wage and that my children should starve to save the customer $3 a month for something that they don't actually need.
I've always found most translations to be incredibly vague about what that meant, since Paul, the one who penned the letter under the Holy Spirit's inspiration, laid hands on quite a few people, so I checked multiple translations.
So again, the Bible doesn't say what you want it to on the matter.
Can you cite times that those in this movement have said that against valid criticisms?
Insignificant issue, but they may not have it quite right. You don't either. Hebrews doesn't say that it was lack of blood in the sacrifice that displeased God. That may well be the case, but you haven't established that in scripture. It says later in Hebrews that we can sacrifice with praise.
You are recycling your arguments here, and yet you still don't have a scripture to stand on. The New Testament never ends tithing, anywhere, and Jesus endorses it, so you are attempting to criticize others for being more scriptural than you yourself are willing to be. Sure, we should give our tithes and offering with joy, but Biblically, we should give them.
So out of context that it actually changes the meaning. Yes, Jesus did say not to pray to be seen, which is different from being seen praying. It is also written that man looks to appearance, but God looks to the heart. Yes, IHOP prays in public, so that those watching can pray in unity. That's awesome. Jesus prayed in public. Did He sin? Do your pastors and teachers not ever pray in public? Is there no prayer in your church services?
This movement demands Christians to participate in deliverance ministry suggesting they are demon infested and need to be cleansed. Why do they do this? Because it draws people who agree with them to a deep level of submission and a deep deception.
Or maybe they are suggesting, that Satan is an intruder and that we are not to give him any footholds.
This very thread demonstrates that they are correct. It is full of condemnations for not following the idols of the day and unsubstantiated accusations of sins, that haven't been shown to exist.
What?
...and on that note you condemn yourself. You have been shown here to lack perfection in your own teachings. Like the fictitious Star Trek mechanism Nomad you must now renounce yourself for not meeting your own standard of perfection. Nomad destroyed himself for being flawed. I am not even remotely suggesting that, but I am suggesting the next time you want to identify an imperfect teacher that you start a little closer to home.
So are you saying that anyone who operates in these gifts is not known by Jesus? If that's not what you are saying then you need to establish, by some other means than the operation of the gifts, that these people do not know God.
 
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lismore

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Hello. Never heard of 'Nar' until reading this thread. But one question, if God had to restore the offices of Apostle and prophet does that mean they went away or lapsed? Is that the view of the group (NAR)
 
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AGTG

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Hello. Never heard of 'Nar' until reading this thread. But one question, if God had to restore the offices of Apostle and prophet does that mean they went away or lapsed? Is that the view of the group (NAR)

It's an important part of their theology to suggest God is doing something new and special now, as that allows them to freewheel fast and loose without adherence to scripture.

And JiminPA, you're entitled to your opinions, but it appears to me that the word of God does not have the authority it should in your walk.
 
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jiminpa

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And that's your opinion. Personally, I think that I'm not the one lacking in recognizing the authority of scripture, which is why it's so important to me to use them as they are written and in context. I try to let them change me, not for me to try to change them. Not everyone takes them so seriously.
 
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