My thoughts on God

GodSchism · Jan 24, 2007

God is pure Spirit. God is so perfect that he doesnt have to exist. If God were to exist, he would not be perfect because that which exists becomes imperfect in the way that it needs to manifest itself. Perfection can never manifest itself because if it did we would be able to look at God from different perspectives; as one mans God is another mans devil.
Perfection should, to be if it is perfect, transcend and surpass the uttermost boundaries of reason; and what is beyond the capabilities of any beings reason; but that which doesnt exist; therefore God is so perfect that he doesnt have to exist. This is beyond any beings comprehension because no being can grasp non-existence.
In Spirit, we draw from concept and experience to manifest the reason that suggests God exists; however, no one can truly know or grasp the perfection of God because we, if we were to assume God is perfect then we must transcend and surpass the uttermost boundaries of reason to that which doesnt exist.
God only is and acts within existing beings and men.

GodSchism · Jan 24, 2007

Perhaps there is a God out there...however, what is the one thing that even an all-powerful and all-knowing God cannot conceive--is that which doesn't exist. I believe that a God must even have a God above him; and what better way than the concept of non-existence, to be placed above a God; in that--God becomes empty and in the emptiness, to completion, is that which gives itself away, freely. God, if he were to ponder non-existence, he would have to conceive that non-existence relates to emptiness; therefore if God were omnibenevolent then he would have to be empty of thought and all-giving in nature. In the eyes of non-existence, since not even an all-powerful and all-knowing God can conceive of such a thing, in the way to be completely non-existent; therefore, God becomes a Child in the sight of non-existence, if he were to place non-existence above himself; as that which directs his will in clarity of thought--in that emptiness of space...

quatona · Jan 25, 2007

GodSchism said:
God is pure Spirit. God is so perfect that he doesnt have to exist. If God were to exist, he would not be perfect because that which exists becomes imperfect in the way that it needs to manifest itself. Perfection can never manifest itself because if it did we would be able to look at God from different perspectives; as one mans God is another mans devil.
Perfection should, to be if it is perfect, transcend and surpass the uttermost boundaries of reason; and what is beyond the capabilities of any beings reason; but that which doesnt exist; therefore God is so perfect that he doesnt have to exist. This is beyond any beings comprehension because no being can grasp non-existence.
In Spirit, we draw from concept and experience to manifest the reason that suggests God exists; however, no one can truly know or grasp the perfection of God because we, if we were to assume God is perfect then we must transcend and surpass the uttermost boundaries of reason to that which doesnt exist.
God only is and acts within existing beings and men.

IOW, god is but a concept?

MedicMan · Jan 26, 2007

If the Lord is omnipotent, omnibenevolent, and so on, then how can there be a being greater than He, or a state of His existence greater than the one which He exists in now? Regard the following:

St Anselm said:
God is a being than which nothing greater can be conceived.

This sums the idea of God up quite nicely, I feel. It is impossible for anything that is greater than God to exist.

GodSchism said:
God is so perfect that he doesnt have to exist... God only is and acts within existing beings and men.

You appear to be arguing here that the Lord does not have an actuality, only a concept. In reply, I present the following:

Peter Cole said:

[*]God is the greatest possible being
[*]If God exists in the mind alone, then a greater being could be imagined to exist both in the mind and in reality
[*]This being would be greater than God
[*]

Click to expand...

Thus, God must possess both conceptuality and actuality, because to only allow Him conceptuality would be to allow for other beings to exist that would be greater than Him. So in response to your claim, "God is so perfct that He doesn't have to exist," I state the complete reverse, that He has to exist because he is so perfect.

GodSchism said:
however, what is the one thing that even an all-powerful and all-knowing God cannot conceive--is that which doesn't exist

Again, well put but I beg to differ. Allow me to treat you to a little scripture:
[BIBLE]Genesis 1:1[/BIBLE]

The Lord did this out of nothing. Now surely He must be able to conceive of nothing, since He created the world out of it. That would be similar to you saying, "I have no idea what wood is, but look at the wooden chair I've just made!" Also, God is omniscient. Wouldn't this imply that He can concevie of nothingness?

DailyBlessings · Jan 26, 2007

GodSchism said:
God is pure Spirit. God is so perfect that he doesnt have to exist. If God were to exist, he would not be perfect because that which exists becomes imperfect in the way that it needs to manifest itself. Perfection can never manifest itself because if it did we would be able to look at God from different perspectives; as one mans God is another mans devil.
Perfection should, to be if it is perfect, transcend and surpass the uttermost boundaries of reason; and what is beyond the capabilities of any beings reason; but that which doesnt exist; therefore God is so perfect that he doesnt have to exist. This is beyond any beings comprehension because no being can grasp non-existence.
In Spirit, we draw from concept and experience to manifest the reason that suggests God exists; however, no one can truly know or grasp the perfection of God because we, if we were to assume God is perfect then we must transcend and surpass the uttermost boundaries of reason to that which doesnt exist.
God only is and acts within existing beings and men.

You might be interested in the work of the theologian Paul Tillich, who believed similarly.

quatona · Jan 26, 2007

MedicMan said:
If the Lord is omnipotent, omnibenevolent, and so on, then how can there be a being greater than He, or a state of His existence greater than the one which He exists in now? Regard the following:

This sums the idea of God up quite nicely, I feel. It is impossible for anything that is greater than God to exist.

You appear to be arguing here that the Lord does not have an actuality, only a concept. In reply, I present the following: Thus, God must possess both conceptuality and actuality, because to only allow Him conceptuality would be to allow for other beings to exist that would be greater than Him. So in response to your claim, "God is so perfct that He doesn't have to exist," I state the complete reverse, that He has to exist because he is so perfect.

You seem to be using the term "great" pretty loosely and in alternating meanings.

moogoob · Jan 27, 2007

Interesting thoughts. Meshes well with my own ideas re:other deities like Athena, Ares etc. still existing today in people.

GodSchism · Jan 27, 2007

quatona said:
IOW, god is but a concept?

God is a concept. Even a God must have a concept of what a God is; therefore, God only is and acts within existing beings and men.

quatona · Jan 27, 2007

GodSchism said:
God is a concept. Even a God must have a concept of what a God is;

Why does a concept must have a concept?

GodSchism · Jan 27, 2007

quatona said:
Why does a concept must have a concept?

If concepts didn't lead into more concepts then the infinite would perish and cease to be; therefore, we would only be able to do none other than repeat the same dull round again. God must have a concept of what God is; and since God has a concept of what God is, the concept of God leads into more cocepts, eventually leading into and defining perfection. The infinite perception is the everlasting God.

quatona · Jan 27, 2007

I´m afraid I don´t understand at all. But thanks for trying to explain, anyways.

GodSchism said:
If concepts didn't lead into more concepts then the infinite would perish and cease to be; therefore, we would only be able to do none other than repeat the same dull round again. God must have a concept of what God is; and since God has a concept of what God is, the concept of God leads into more cocepts, eventually leading into and defining perfection. The infinite perception is the everlasting God.

MedicMan · Jan 27, 2007

GodSchism said:
You seem to be using the term "great" pretty loosely and in alternating meanings.

Where do I use more than one meaning for the term 'great'? In all instances, I use the term to refer to one's 'level of being' as it were, as if all living things had a hierarchy based on intelligence, language, morality, and so forth (essentially, taking into consideration every virtue that it is possible for an animal or human to possess). God is the greatest because there is nothing that is above Him in the hierarchy of life. That is what I mean by the term 'great' in all the instances that I use or quote it.

GodSchism said:
Even a God must have a concept of what a God is; therefore, God only is and acts within existing beings and men.

The first part, I agree with: an intelligent being (mortal or immortal) must possess the ability to think beyond its immediate environment, to consider alternate states of affairs to the immediate, real state. However, to be able to possess a concept of Himself, God must first exist as a physical being surely?

GodSchism · Jan 27, 2007

MedicMan said:
The first part, I agree with: an intelligent being (mortal or immortal) must possess the ability to think beyond its immediate environment, to consider alternate states of affairs to the immediate, real state. However, to be able to possess a concept of Himself, God must first exist as a physical being surely?

Yea, a creator being surely exists but as I said God must have a concept of what God is; as I spoke, God only is and acts within existing beings and men. It is not God, the being, who is God but the word that flows from his mouth is God; as it is a conceptualization of the defining word that flows from the mouth that is divine because it is constructive to the concept of what God is. Just like in scripture, it says, In the beginning was the word and the word was with God (the creator being) and the word (the word is that which is spoken must be divine) was God.
Therefore, God only is and acts within existing beings and men.

Im_A · Jan 27, 2007

some other curiosities for you to check out could be:

Thomas J. J. Altizer
Gabriel Vahanian

i plan on checking these authors out myself. their ideas may be a bit similiar than yours. i want to check them out because their ideas are really interesting. i'm not saying i agree with them, but their points seem a bit interesting to check out.

here's a link if you want to check it out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_is_dead

GodSchism · Jan 27, 2007

GodSchism said:
Yea, a creator being surely exists but as I said God must have a concept of what God is; as I spoke, God only is and acts within existing beings and men. It is not God, the being, who is God but the word that flows from his mouth is God; as it is a conceptualization of the defining word that flows from the mouth that is divine because it is constructive to the concept of what God is. Just like in scripture, it says, In the beginning was the word and the word was with God (the creator being) and the word (the word is that which is spoken must be divine) was God.
Therefore, God only is and acts within existing beings and men.

To further complicate perception:

Well, if the word can be made flesh once, then it is meant to be made flesh for all those who speak it's truth. I, myself, and you, can be made into a God just by speaking the word; as long as we remain in the truth. But aren't there other truths besides that which is made by Jesus Christ, as spoken. Does not the Truth blossom into a flower or does it remain a seed, eternally?
Are there not other wars beside that of the sword? Are not words spoken in wars? The war of the mouth is the true war of God; for that which comes out of your mouth will defile you or exalt you.
Is it possible by the words we speak, declare our mortality or immortality. To become immortal, does not one have to speak with an immortal tongue. This is the knowledge of Truth--to what end does words meet. If my tongue is a mortal tongue by what way shall I become immortal, unless it be by words that stand the test of time--to achieve immortality.

GodSchism · Jan 28, 2007

someone posted this in a different forum I just wanted to share it with you because it is an exellent piece:

THE POWER OF THE TONGUE;
Not many of you should become teacher, my brothers, for you realize that we will be judged more strictly, for we fall short in many respects. If anyone does not fall short in speech, he is a perfect man, able to bridle his whole body also, if we put bits into the mouths of horses to make them obey us, we also guide their whole bodies. It is the same with ships; even though they are so large and driven by fierce winds, they are steered by a very small rudder wherever the pilots inclinatiioon wishes . In the same way the tongue is a small member and yet has great pretentions.

Consider how small a fire can set a huge forest ablaze. the tongue is also a fire. it exists among our members as a world of malice, defiling the whole body and setting the entire course of our lives on fire, itself set on fire by Gehenna. For every kind of beast and bird, of reptile and sea creature, can be tamed and has been tamed by the human species, but no human being can tame the tongue. It is a restless evil, full of deadly poison. With it we bless the Lord and Father, and with it we curse human beings who are made in the likeness of God. From the same mouth come blessing and cursing. This need not be so, my brothers. Does a spring gush forth from the same opening both pure and brackish water? Can a fig tree, my brothers, produce olives, or a grapevine figs? Neither can salt water yield fresh.

James 3; 1-11

In reply:
But every rose has it's thorns. I know exactly what you are talking about. It is the words that come out of our mouths that in reality we believe what we are saying and we become what we speak of. Beware of the devils of Truth; for they will steal your soul away from you and bring you into bondage; not that we are not already bond so that those who are blind have been blessed; and in their blindness is their freedom; for words when spoken in order (when walked through and believed) will ignite a flame within one self; as if breathing a living-spirit in spoken word. Words are deadly poison to the mind; for in them is iniquity and words are not truth but convey truth; and those who seek truth seek their own demise. The Truth will not set you free but bind you in their enchantment. If you want to live in the truth then speak not a word, not a thought; for there is no truth in words. Truth is that which is not spoken; but this is unacceptable to the human mind--the mind is enslaved to words. We are given meanings to words and we put them together to give an identity to ourselves and in essence the words we speak describe our souls and becomes our truth. The foxes have their dens, the birds their nests but human beings have no place to rest their heads, unless it be in friendship.
Words got you the wound and words will heal you if you believe in them.

elman · Jan 29, 2007

GodSchism said:
God is pure Spirit. God is so perfect that he doesnt have to exist. If God were to exist, he would not be perfect because that which exists becomes imperfect in the way that it needs to manifest itself. Perfection can never manifest itself because if it did we would be able to look at God from different perspectives; as one mans God is another mans devil.
Perfection should, to be if it is perfect, transcend and surpass the uttermost boundaries of reason; and what is beyond the capabilities of any beings reason; but that which doesnt exist; therefore God is so perfect that he doesnt have to exist. This is beyond any beings comprehension because no being can grasp non-existence.
In Spirit, we draw from concept and experience to manifest the reason that suggests God exists; however, no one can truly know or grasp the perfection of God because we, if we were to assume God is perfect then we must transcend and surpass the uttermost boundaries of reason to that which doesnt exist.
God only is and acts within existing beings and men.

I think we can grasp non existence. We are the beings that are temporary and illusion in the sense we are not what we appear to be. God is not only real and exists, but God is absolute or true reality while we are simply images or illusions of that reality.

elman · Jan 29, 2007

GodSchism said:
Yea, a creator being surely exists but as I said God must have a concept of what God is; as I spoke, God only is and acts within existing beings and men. It is not God, the being, who is God but the word that flows from his mouth is God; as it is a conceptualization of the defining word that flows from the mouth that is divine because it is constructive to the concept of what God is. Just like in scripture, it says, In the beginning was the word and the word was with God (the creator being) and the word (the word is that which is spoken must be divine) was God.
Therefore, God only is and acts within existing beings and men.

The Creator exists before the creation. God created existing beings and men, therefore He existed before existing beings and men. Being a spirit does not mean God does not exist. It simply means He does not exist as we do physically.

GodSchism · Jan 29, 2007

elman said:
The Creator exists before the creation. God created existing beings and men, therefore He existed before existing beings and men. Being a spirit does not mean God does not exist. It simply means He does not exist as we do physically.

Just because God, the creator being exists, does not mean that the creator was perfect; for surely if he was perfect he would not have turned away from himself and created the world; for surely if he was perfect he would not have let wickedness out of his treasury--the cause of death and sin. It is said that the children of wisdom is sin and death.
In gnosticism it is said that a demiurge had created the world. This is an image of truth and everything that can be imagined is an image of truth; therefore that which was once imagined is now proven true.

elman · Jan 29, 2007

GodSchism said:
Just because God, the creator being exists, does not mean that the creator was perfect; for surely if he was perfect he would not have turned away from himself and created the world; for surely if he was perfect he would not have let wickedness out of his treasury--the cause of death and sin. It is said that the children of wisdom is sin and death.
In gnosticism it is said that a demiurge had created the world. This is an image of truth and everything that can be imagined is an image of truth; therefore that which was once imagined is now proven true.

It is not reasonable that an evil God created us with understanding that to be loving is good and to be unloving is bad. I agree the existence of God and His loving nature is assumptions, as are the assumptions of the non existence of God and his being evil. The existence of evil does not prove God is evil. Evil can easily be explained in the Creator giving us the ability to love. That ability requires that we be able to chose unloving instead. That makes us the creator of evil, not God. God did not let wickedness out, we did.

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