My take on purgatory

tonychanyt · Aug 9, 2023

Does purgatory exist?

I don't know. The word "purgatory" is not in the Bible. I prefer to argue about terms that are actually found in the Bible.

Can the concept of purgatory be found in the Bible?

Yes, the Catholic Church has a formal doctrine about it.

Can the concept of no-purgatory be found in the Bible?

Yes, many Protestant denominations are against purgatory.

How do you decide?

I don't since the word is not in the Bible. If you want to, you can try to decide by weighing the evidence.

See also My take on Trinity.

Lukaris · Aug 9, 2023

I believe the Catholic Church interprets verses like 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 for their doctrine on purgatory. The person already has salvation but there is unresolved sin to be purged by fire.

This doctrine is not part of my Orthodox faith so I cannot embrace it but I can see how it could be understood. Unfortunately corrupt human practices really distorted the doctrine I believe.

AV1611VET · Jun 13, 2024

tonychanyt said:
Can the concept of purgatory be found in the Bible?

Yes, the Catholic Church has a formal doctrine about it.

Purgatory is taken from this passage in 2 Maccabees:

34 In the ensuing battle, a few of the Jews were slain.
35 A man called Dositheus, a powerful horseman and one of Bacenor’s men,* caught hold of Gorgias, grasped his military cloak and dragged him along by brute strength, intending to capture the vile wretch alive, when a Thracian horseman attacked Dositheus and cut off his arm at the shoulder. Then Gorgias fled to Marisa.

36 After Esdris and his men had been fighting for a long time and were weary, Judas called upon the Lord to show himself their ally and leader in the battle.
37 Then, raising a battle cry in his ancestral language, and with hymns, he charged Gorgias’ men when they were not expecting it and put them to flight.

Expiation for the Dead.

38 Judas rallied his army and went to the city of Adullam. As the seventh day was approaching, they purified themselves according to custom and kept the sabbath there.
39 On the following day, since the task had now become urgent, Judas and his companions went to gather up the bodies of the fallen and bury them with their kindred in their ancestral tombs.
40 But under the tunic of each of the dead they found amulets sacred to the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. So it was clear to all that this was why these men had fallen.
41 They all therefore praised the ways of the Lord, the just judge who brings to light the things that are hidden.
42* Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen.
43 He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection in mind;
44 for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead.
45 But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.
46 Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be absolved from their sin.

However, idolatry is a mortal sin, not a venial one.

In fact, it is considered the greatest of mortal sins.

So verse 46 couldn't have happened.

Dan Perez · Jul 8, 2024

tonychanyt said:
Does purgatory exist?

I don't know. The word "purgatory" is not in the Bible. I prefer to argue about terms that are actually found in the Bible.

Can the concept of purgatory be found in the Bible?

Yes, the Catholic Church has a formal doctrine about it.

Can the concept of no-purgatory be found in the Bible?

Yes, many Protestant denominations are against purgatory.

How do you decide?

I don't since the word is not in the Bible. If you want to, you can try to decide by weighing the evidence.

See also My take on Trinity.

And you did say the thing , as there is no Greek word for PURGATORY !!

No Greek word for CHURCH and the Greek word EKKLESIA means ASSEMBLY !!

And there is no PRIESTS in the BODY OF CHRIST as all Priests will be in the MILLAN NIEL KINGDOM, Rev 1:6 and in Ex 19:6 .

dan p

Bob Crowley · Jul 20, 2024

I think Purgatory exists. In fact I'm sure of it.

There are some NT passages which imply the existence of Purgatory without naming it, just as there are NT texts which imply the Trinity without actually using the term.

I Corinthians 3:11-15 - For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble—each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

This implies we will be subject to purification by "fire".

Matthew 5:24-25 - Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

We will stay there till the ledger has been cleared.

Matthew 12;23 - And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

This implies there are some sins whch will have to be forgiven only in the next life.

On a personal note, and obviously this is private revelation, about six weeks after my old Presbyterian pastor died, my wife and I went to visit one of his sons (and his wife) at their home. There was a small photogaph of the pastor on a wall near a door - it was just a head shot really.

As I stood there looking at it and reflecting on things, I had this strange sense of torrid sweatiness on his part. I was a bit puzzled at the time. I was still Protestant obviously and I didn't become Catholic for a few years after that.

But I think I was being given a hint of Purgatory and that even a good and holy man like him had a few, no doubt minor, faults to be ironed out.

If Purgatory doesn't exist, then we have the absurd possibility of a serial murderer or tyrant making a deathbed confession. Then according to the no-Purgatory camp, he is just going to waltz in with a "Well done, good and faithful servant, enter into the joy of your Lord", not having made one ounce of effort towards holiness before he died. I think he'd have a bit of cleaning up to do.

In the case of the thief on the cross that was a special case, in that he was literally crucified with Christ.

A case could be made that he did his purgatory during his terrible suffering from crucifixion. Even after his admission to Christ, he stayed on that cross until the soldiers broke his legs which would have been agonising in itself. He paid a high price for admission to Paradise.

tonychanyt · Jul 20, 2024

Thanks for sharing.

Bob Crowley said:
I think Purgatory exists.

Define Purgatory

Lukaris · Jul 20, 2024

I tend to see the concept of purgatory as actually a place of healing before being fully released and entering paradise. Since it seems that the saved individual still has burns from fires of sin, it is like a burns ward in a hospital in which recovery is guaranteed in this case ( although perhaps painful for some).

tonychanyt · Jul 20, 2024

Lukaris said:
I tend to see the concept of purgatory as actually a place of healing before being fully released and entering paradise.

Who goes there?

Lukaris · Jul 20, 2024

tonychanyt said:
Who goes there?

I believe from what St. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 it is the quality of works done on top of a foundation of salvation and when in life the person was saved.

So if, for ex., God knows I was saved for the last 10 years of my life and I sincerely practiced charity & at least prayed for the salvation of others ( Matthew 6:1-13, Matthew 9:36-38 etc.). This is like silver & gold. However, maybe I was also selfish at times and felt I deserved to also “live it up” at times to excess. For ex. instead of being thankful for being able to afford a fine dinner of fine food & a vintage wine once a month, I decided to “live it up” for a whole month having the same cuisine & drink every day. While doing that, I neglected to feed the poor, prayer for others etc. this is straw or nothing and I will suffer some burns for that ( despite salvation). For a much richer person than me, having such fine cuisine would not likely be selfish since that person wouldn’t covet something that is more casually done as long as charity & prayer was in their heart and in works in daily life.

tonychanyt · Jul 20, 2024

Lukaris said:
I believe from what St. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 it is the quality of works done on top of a foundation of salvation and when in life the person was saved.

So if, for ex., God knows I was saved for the last 10 years of my life and I sincerely practiced charity & at least prayed for the salvation of others ( Matthew 6:1-13, Matthew 9:36-38 etc.). This is like silver & gold. However, maybe I was also selfish at times and felt I deserved to also “live it up” at times to excess. For ex. instead of being thankful for being able to afford a fine dinner of fine food & a vintage wine once a month, I decided to “live it up” for a whole month having the same cuisine & drink every day. While doing that, I neglected to feed the poor, prayer for others etc. this is straw or nothing and I will suffer some burns for that ( despite salvation). For a much richer person than me, having such fine cuisine would not likely be selfish since that person wouldn’t covet something that is more casually done as long as charity & prayer was in their heart and in works in daily life.

Some people will be resurrected to the Purgatory to be healed before entering paradise.

True?

Lukaris · Jul 20, 2024

tonychanyt said:
Some people will be resurrected to the Purgatory to be healed before entering paradise.

True?

I believe so. I have to take care in discussing this doctrine since it is not of the Orthodox confession. Personally, I believe it was originally a reasonable doctrine that was ruined & distorted by indulgences etc. It was fallen human nature that did this not Catholicism ( per se).

tonychanyt · Jul 20, 2024

Lukaris said:
I believe so.

See If you think that some people will be resurrected to Purgatory to be healed before entering paradise and wish to wager on it, and follow up there.

Lukaris · Jul 20, 2024

tonychanyt said:
See If you think that some people will be resurrected to Purgatory to be healed before entering paradise and wish to wager on it, and follow up there.

Thanks anyway, I have gone as far as I should with this doctrine which has long interested me but is not part of Orthodox Christian faith.

Bob Crowley · Jul 21, 2024

tonychanyt said:
Thanks for sharing.

Define Purgatory

This is from the Catholic Catechism, paragraphs 1030 to 1032 -

III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY

1030 are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611

Who goes there?

"All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified" go to Purgatory. If someone is in Purgatory, they will get to heaven eventually.

tonychanyt · Jul 21, 2024

Bob Crowley said:
This is from the Catholic Catechism, paragraphs 1030 to 1032 -

"All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified" go to Purgatory. If someone is in Purgatory, they will get to heaven eventually.

See If you think that some people will be resurrected to Purgatory to be healed before entering paradise and wish to wager on it, and follow up there

Dan Perez · Jul 22, 2024

Bob Crowley said:
I think Purgatory exists. In fact I'm sure of it.

There are some NT passages which imply the existence of Purgatory without naming it, just as there are NT texts which imply the Trinity without actually using the term.

This implies we will be subject to purification by "fire".

We will stay there till the ledger has been cleared.

This implies there are some sins whch will have to be forgiven only in the next life.

On a personal note, and obviously this is private revelation, about six weeks after my old Presbyterian pastor died, my wife and I went to visit one of his sons (and his wife) at their home. There was a small photogaph of the pastor on a wall near a door - it was just a head shot really.

As I stood there looking at it and reflecting on things, I had this strange sense of torrid sweatiness on his part. I was a bit puzzled at the time. I was still Protestant obviously and I didn't become Catholic for a few years after that.

But I think I was being given a hint of Purgatory and that even a good and holy man like him had a few, no doubt minor, faults to be ironed out.

If Purgatory doesn't exist, then we have the absurd possibility of a serial murderer or tyrant making a deathbed confession. Then according to the no-Purgatory camp, he is just going to waltz in with a "Well done, good and faithful servant, enter into the joy of your Lord", not having made one ounce of effort towards holiness before he died. I think he'd have a bit of cleaning up to do.

In the case of the thief on the cross that was a special case, in that he was literally crucified with Christ.

A case could be made that he did his purgatory during his terrible suffering from crucifixion. Even after his admission to Christ, he stayed on that cross until the soldiers broke his legs which would have been agonising in itself. He paid a high price for admission to Paradise.

And 1 Cor 3:11-15 it works that go threw the FIRE , verse 14 says he will receive a Reward .

And verse 15 says , but he himself WILL BE SAVED , Yet so as through FIRE // PUR means Judgment .

There is NO Greek word for PURGATORY in the Greek text , at ALL !!

dan p

Bob Crowley · Jul 22, 2024

Dan Perez said:
And 1 Cor 3:11-15 it works that go threw the FIRE , verse 14 says he will receive a Reward .

And verse 15 says , but he himself WILL BE SAVED , Yet so as through FIRE // PUR means Judgment .

There is NO Greek word for PURGATORY in the Greek text , at ALL !!

dan p

There is no Greek word for Trinity either, so obviously you don't believe in that either.

tonychanyt · Jul 23, 2024

Bob Crowley said:
There is no Greek word for Trinity either, so obviously you don't believe in that either.

Check out My take on Trinity

Dan Perez · Jul 27, 2024

Bob Crowley said:
There is no Greek word for Trinity either, so obviously you don't believe in that either.

And in 1 John 5:7 and 8 , For there v are THREE that bear witness in heaven , the FATHER , the WORD , and the HOLY SPIRIT

and these three ARE ONE .

These three are called a TRINITY , and yet are ONE !!

And by the way , in the BODY OF CHRIST there are NO PRIESTS or NUNS and no Confessional , unless you have a verse that

AND also says call no man FATHER for our FATHER IS IN Heaven !!

dan p

Bob Crowley · Jul 27, 2024

Do you call your natural father "Father"?

See you in Purgatory.

My take on purgatory

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