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My story - looking for some help clearing it up...

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HoustonHorn

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About 3 years ago I walked to the front, accepted Christ, and was baptized a couple weeks later. For the next two or so years I was fairly hard core into Christianity. I was sure I was saved, I was sure I was going to Heaven, I was sure that Jesus and I had some sort of personal relationship.

Now, not so much.

What I came to realize is that I cannot accept everything in the Bible as literal. For example, I cannot accept that the Earth is only 6,000 years old. There's just too much evidence disputing that. And I've heard the arguments that all the evidence for a multibillion-year-old Earth is just Satan planting doubts. I don't believe that. There is one book saying it's 6,000 years and every other piece of evidence saying the Earth is billions of years old. How do we know that the one piece of evidence wasn't planted by Satan? It sure would be easier. And there are other parts I have trouble taking literally, but hopefully you get the idea.

But now that I don't believe the entire Bible is literal, how am I supposed to decide which parts to take literally and which parts to take as metaphors? Was the great flood really a flood, or is it a euphamism for a leader killing all but a few people? Was Jesus really resurrected, or was that just a story to describe how we're supposed to be reborn?

And yes I've prayed. I've asked for my faith to increase. I've asked for explanations to my doubts.
 

cm24

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As far as how old the earth is, the number six thousand was announced by a guy in the 16-17 hundreds (I think). He had no comprehension of the universe as we do today.
Consider this: God is the author of creation. J.R.R. Tolkein wrote the Lord of the Rings with thousands of years of history behind it. He went all the way back to the beggining of time. Now to the people in the book(ie: us), it would obviousley seem that their world had existed for hundreds of thousands of years. But Tolkein (ie:God) knew that they had only been around for a few years. Many such dissagreements would be settled if people would only remember that God doesn't exist in time, and he can do anything.

As far as other questions go, it is alright to poke and prod at the issues, but you must always have faith. Question God to learn more about him, to prove your faith is right, not to trap him or prove him wrong. Apparent contradictions and immpossiblities in the Bible are their because we do not fully understand his purpose yet. Read 1Cor 13:12.
 
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HoustonHorn

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Thanks for the reply, and the book / author explanation actually makes a lot of sense.

The 6,000-year-old Earth theory may have been a poor choice as an example since even many literal Christians seem to discount it. But in your explanation you mention that the young earth theory came around because of the understanding of the time. So what was once a "fact" has now been disproven. I would suppose that's similar to the Flat Earth groups today. How are we supposed to know what other facts from the Bible are not true facts and will be disproven in the years to come?

And I'm not in a state of trying to disprove God. Heck, I'd like to go back to believing in all of that. But the more I research, the less I am able to believe in the Christian God. New Testament history - both the history of that time and the history of the book itself - has been on my interest list recently and I'm waiting on a couple books from Amazon.

You mention faith. Why should that faith be given to the Christian God? Why not Allah? Why not Zeus? Why is it so easy for a Christian to discount the hundreds of other gods that have existed but not their own God. Why should I believe the Bible? What makes it more valid than the Qu'ran?

And one thing about your reply bothers me - the mention of "poking and prodding". I don't think you meant it the way it came across, but poking and prodding infers a shallow examination. And by that inference a shallow examination of my faith and belief system is ok, but deep examination wouldn't be. Again, I don't think that's what you intended, but that's how it came across.

To question God you have to be willing to have Him proven false. To try and prove faith correct, you have to be willing to risk losing it. The idea of questioning God and faith with the intent of strengthening beliefs or faith means you already have your answer. It's no different than doing the same studies to disprove God. Personally I'm struggling with keeping an open mind and not having one side of the fence or the other in hand when I read.
 
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bfly

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Just a short answer for you. So what if the world is billions of years old. That has nothing to do with "Did God send the Holy Spirit to woo you?" Did the Holy Spirit lead you to Jesus? Did you have a heart change or were you doing this because in your mind it was the thing to do?

The point is, you can have all these argument for years to come and you will still be debating who is right and who is wrong.

Have you been born again? Can you name the sins you have been delivered from?

Have you studied the way Jesus lived and taught. Would you think that life style would be harmful to you and or others. Would it be a better life style and would it help to make you a better person if not for God's good, but for your own good?

Jesus lived and taught the perfect life style. Now if you read that in a book of how to live a bountiful life would you accept the fact, yes, that would be a way all should want to live thier lives if at all possible.

Just thinking out loud. Hopefully you will think silently and ponder the thoughts before making all these facts that have nothing to do with your eternity. Can you imagne what this earth would be like if all the God fearing/loving/respect for/ praying people were removed from this earth. I have been thinking about that the last year or so and it scares me to death. Do you realize the evil out there and nothing to block it. That is scary.

Give it some thought. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. God Bless
 
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HoustonHorn

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Please define "heart change". I never was one who went out drinking, took drugs, stole, or any of that. So, I didn't have what I assume you mean by heart change. My ethics and morals really didn't change. However, at the time I had no doubt that I had asked Christ into my heart and was saved. I had no doubt that Heaven and Hell existed and I was going to Heaven.

And I'm not debating that Jesus was a good teacher. I know that some go so far as to debate whether the person Jesus ever truly existed or whether He was an example life rather than a true life. Personally I feel that He is at least partially based on a real person, or several real people. My current disbelief of His divinity does not discount His teachings.

To continue with that, I don't see a problem following His teachings. I think most of what he taught is very important and appropriate. And I see no problem with people who follow those teachings. But most of those teaching involve being a moral and ethical person, which many people are as a function of their personality, not their faith. This will probably cause some irritation, but being a Christian does not necessarily make one a moral and ethical person.

Your second to last paragraph makes the assumption that all people who do not believe in the Christian God are bad, evil people. Many Christians base their opinions of atheists on people like Madeline Murray O'Hare or that guy that sued because his daughter had to say the pledge with "one nation under God." That would be like basing opinions of Christianity on Faldwell or the KKK, or basing your opinion of Islam on al Qaeda. I think that religion often serves the same purpose as racism - it divides people. By making sweeping generalizations - which I'm often guilty of as well - it just serves to extend that division.
 
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cm24

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Sorry, I Did not mean to imply that your soul seaching or questions were shallow.

Please define "heart change". I never was one who went out drinking, took drugs, stole, or any of that. So, I didn't have what I assume you mean by heart change. My ethics and morals really didn't change

I find that hard to beleive. I'm sure you can think of something that changed. The change I see in myself is a strong support to my faith. I wasn't a crazy person before either, but I did get drunk occasionally, swore a lot, I had an extremly bad temper when things frustrated me, I chewed a tin of snuff a day, and I was addicted to pornography. Things that I did without thinking in the past, my conscience now says "NO!".

Your second to last paragraph makes the assumption that all people who do not believe in the Christian God are bad, evil people.

ALL people are bad, evil people. If we were all saints, we wouldn't need Jesus, would we? Also, God has written the Law on the hearts of man, so while an atheist does not beleive in God and is headed to hell, we still knows that murder is wrong.

From the tone of your posts, I do not think that we are the ones who will have your answers. Just remember that God pulls away from us at times, to test our faith when He is not near. I beleive that may be what you are expeirencing. Do not stumble!

Peace.
 
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HoustonHorn

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Sorry, I Did not mean to imply that your soul seaching or questions were shallow.
That's not what I meant. I've had several people tell me that if I get too deep into reading the Bible as part of doubt I'll get confused because I'm not letting God lead me. Almost like they're afraid of anybody reading the Bible except for the few verses around what the pastor uses. I mistakenly assumed that's what you meant.

I find that hard to beleive.
Fair enough. Looking at your list reminded me of a few things that have changed, and have stayed changed.

All people are bad, evil people.
Thank you for that answer. Normally an answer to that would have been defensive, which yours wasn't.

That said, the inherent evil of people is something that's driving me away from Christianity. I cannot accept that people are evil by default. Selfish, yes. And selfishness manifests itself in different ways in different people. Some steal, some lie, some take the last doughnut at a meeting. But I believe that how we control that has nothing to do with where we sit on Sunday mornings.

I do not think that we are the ones who will have your answers.
Any suggestions?

Life made sense before religion - we're animals just like the family pet. Life made sense during religion - we're going to Heaven (or not). But now I've got those two views competing in my mind and they obviously don't get along well.

I've been posting here and at an atheist / agnostic forum hoping to find some sort of clear answer. The part I'm having trouble with is that either side is going to be biased one way or the other. Trying to get through that bias to an answer that makes sense to me is often very difficult.

Same to you, and thanks again for your answers.
 
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cm24

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Thank you for that answer. Normally an answer to that would have been defensive, which yours wasn't.

That said, the inherent evil of people is something that's driving me away from Christianity. I cannot accept that people are evil by default.

It may not seem that all people are "Hitler" evil to you, but remember whose standards we are being judged by.
Have you ever watched "The Passion of the Christ"? If you haven't watch it ASAP (just not with your kids around). In one scene, after Jesus proclaims who he is to the assembly of preists, everybody starts vicously beating him. That scene moves me more than any other, because here is God in the flesh, come down to humanity.And what do we do to our God, our Creator,
who wants nothing more than to love us? We beat him as badley as we possibly could. Imagine your father comes to visit you and instead of a hug at your front door you beat him so bad that he almost dies. Then you get a gun from your closet and kill him. That is what we do to God each time we sin. Think of that the next time you do something you know you shouldn't. Lying to get off work might not seem like much to you but it means much more to God.

My suggestion would be to talk to a preist or pastor, or someone along those lines. Actual conversation with another person is always better than this, if you can get it.

And please, if you feel yourself leaning "the other way" don't make a rash decision (although I doubt you will) think about it for a long time, like 40 days.

Peace (and sorry for the long answer.)
 
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HoustonHorn

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think about it for a long time, like 40 days.
Oh, I'm way past 40 days It's been a little over 6 months since I've started having doubts. And I'm generally pretty obsessive, so rash decisions have never been a problem with me.

I haven't talked to a pastor, and don't plan to. The best solution for me is to talk this out with someone who has either been through something similar or is not obviously on one side or the other. Or someone with no ties to Christianity. It's pretty obvious where a pastor would try to lead me. But I have talked with people from church. That just winds up with 'have more faith' or 'pray more', implying it's my fault that I'm having these problems.

And it's really not god (in the creator sense, not the Christian sense) nor religion I'm having problems with - it's Christianity.

Don't base your faith on how old the earth may or may not be.
That was just one example of many. It's more an issue of every case where science has disproven something that believers believe being labeled as Satan working to confuse us.
 
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Johnnz

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There are some complex issues out there for us Christians to ponder. Fortunately there is an abundance of good books and downloadable lectures from intelligent Christian scholars that address a wid erange of questions and contemporary issues.

Whatever you do don'tget sucked into a faith vs reason view. That could be fatal either to your faith or to your God-given intellect

Feel free to PM me if you want some titles etc.

John
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cm24

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Tell me if I am wrong, but it seems like you are looking for someone here to give you the difinitive answer, and your not getting it. Is the root of the problem inconsistencies in the bible, or something else, or are you not sure?

Talking to someone who is not a Christian would be like asking me about Buddihsm. I can tell you what I know, which is very little, and most of it would probably be wrong.However, I doubt someone from a different religion could give you a better answer than any of us can, as theirs would be based on some form of faith as well. Nor can Science Give you the answers about morality, or your purpose on the earth. Science only works to prove God's existence, contrary to what a lot of people think.

Not really sure what else to tell you! maybe somebody else has an answer?
 
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HoustonHorn

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I don't think it's inconsistencies in the Bible that are causing all my problems, but they at least play a supporting role.

The closest I've come to the root of my doubts is wondering why the jump from not knowing why (why we're here, where we came from, why we're alive, etc) to the Christian God. It seems that that jump is based more on our experiences growing up, what we are taught, and the culture we come from than any type of logic. For example, if I was born in the middle east I would probably be having doubts about Allah right now.

And yes, a definitive answer would be nice; but I know that's not going to happen until either the rapture or I die. And if it is false, then I'll never know.

I really do appreciate the help you've given me. Just having another point of view weighing in has helped. I've had problems getting help from Christian people I know, or at least face to face with people. It usually winds up with a sort of sad look on their face, almost like they pity me. The anonymity of the web is a very beneficial thing for that.

John - I would appreciate any book (or website) suggestions you have. I'm especially interested in the history of the Bible, how it came to be adopted, history of the time it was written, that sort of thing.
 
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the Bible does not necessarily say that the world is about 6000 years old. What some people claim is a Biblical truth is more their interpretation of the Bible.

Let's look at the first two verses of the first chapter of the first book of the Bible: Genesis 1: 1-2. I'll quote from the King James translation:
In the beginning God created the heaven and earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

After these verses, the Bible describes six days of creation, from light till animals, plants, and humans. Adam and Eve were created the sixth day of creation. There has been much dispute whether these days of creation should be interpreted as 'real' days, or more like periods of time; people in favor of the latter point, often use the text that states that for God, one day is like thousand years. The Bible describes a line of descendants of Adam and Eve, and if we add ages of these people, this can lead to an estimate of the age of the earth of somewhat more than six thousand years. Such an age is in strong contrast to what many scientists say about the age of the earth: a few billion years.
But, what does the Bible really say about the age of the earth? In any case, there is no explicit verse, that relates the time of creation of the earth with any event in later books of the Bible. But implicitly: if we believe that the Bible is true from cover till cover, can we be sure that the earth is less than 7000 years old? I think: no. This depends on how one would read and interpret verses from the Bible.


Let us go back to these first two verses of Genesis. The first verse already tells God created the heaven and the earth. Now, many people read this as a kind of summary of the remainder of Genesis 1. However, one can also read this as follows:
  • First, God creates heaven and earth.
  • And the earth was without form, and void
  • Then, the text tells us that the Spirit of God visits this earth without and form , and how God turns this in to something good. continuing into verse 3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4And God saw that the light was good. english standard version
So, in this explanation, the seven days of creation are not the first creation: they are a later creation. I think that God does not create darkness: if He creates something, it is good. So, after the first creation of heaven and earth, something has happened that made that the earth was no longer as God meant it to be. This may - but that is only speculation - have been the downfall of the devil/Satan and the angels that were cast from heaven with him. Or something else. Then, Genesis tells that God made the earth without form and void into the earth of which God saw that it was good.

'and darkness was upon the face of the deep'


in the time of the earth being without form and vold that could of taken millions of years, any amount of time to make.


With this interpretation of Genesis 1: 1-2, one cannot tell from the Bible how old the earth is. This is not a problem, as the Bible is no science book, but a book of faith.
The interpretation given above does not need to be the correct one. But: it may be. What I hope to have shown here is that it depends on the interpretation of the Bible on what it tells about the age of the earth. And hence, accepting the scientific theory that the earth is a few billion years old does not mean that you believe something that is in contradiction with the Bible.

from somebody eles view on this
Hugh Ross, an excellent scientist and Christian, has provided very convincing arguments that the days of Genesis one are not intended as 24 hour periods of time. I will also supplement them with much of the evidence I have gained from other sources.

Even if the days of Genesis one are indeed 24 hour periods, it still would not follow that the earth is young. This is because Bible scholar John Sailhamer has recently argued a good case that if the days are 24 hour periods, they can be solidly understood as recounting the specific renovating of the promise land to make it suitable for man's inhabitation. So, on his view, the creation of the whole universe is stated in Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth," but the rest of the chapter deals with a much later time when God made the earth suitable for man's inhabitation. For those who are interested in looking into this view more, I recommend his book Genesis Unbound: A Provocative New Look at the Creation Account (Sisters, OR: Multnomah Boks, 1996).
Before beginning on our analysis of the meaning of "day" in Genesis one, an important point to recognize is that the issue is not whether Genesis one should be interpreted literally or figuratively. The issue is what the author meant to say. A literal system of interpretation recognizes the context, grammar, and historical setting of the biblical text, and seeks to understand the author's true meaning.


Hugh Ross says "While young-earth creationists assert the `plain meaning' of the text rules out all but twenty-four hour days, a careful look at various textual elements points to a different conclusion. Old-earth creationists find many scriptural reasons, apart from science, for interpreting the creation days as long time periods."[3] As we will see, a long-creation day interpretation is therefore consistent with the literal system of biblical interpretation, and with the historicity of Genesis.
If it can be shown that Genesis does not require the meaning of twenty-four hour days, then this clearly shows that it is at least possible that the "days" are used to refer to long periods of time. It will further be demonstrated that the text actually implies an interpretation other than solar days, making the "age" interpretation likely in that "days" of Genesis are intended to mean "ages" (as Dr. Archer testifies), the Bible does not teach a young earth but allows for the evidence that the earth is very old.

The Hebrew words yom, ereb, and boqer
Yom
is the Hebrew word translated "day." According to Vine's Expository of Old Testament Words, it can be used to indicate the period of daylight as contrasted with nighttime (Gen 8:22), a period of twenty-four hours (Gen. 39:10), or a period of unspecified duration without any reference to solar days (Gen. 2:4).[4] According to Hebrew scholar William Wilson, yom is "frequently put for time in general, or for a long time, a whole period under consideration...Day is also put for a particular season or time when any extraordinary even happens."[5] Examples of various uses of the word yom are Genesis 4:3, where it means a process of time; Genesis 30:14 where it means wheat harvest time; Joshua 24:7 where it means a long season; and Isaiah 4:2 where it means a future era.[6]



Ereb is the Hebrew word translated "evening." It also means "sunset," "night," or "ending of the day." Boqer is the Hebrew word translated morning. It means "sunrise" or "beginning of day," with possible metaphoric usage.[7] The evening and morning of the creation days refer to the beginning and ending boundaries of the day, not the rising and the setting of the sun. "For example, in my grandfather's day refers to my grandfather's lifetime. So the morning and evening of his day would be his youth and old-age."[8] By his references to the evening and morning of the day, Moses is showing that creation was in definite, ordered stages, instead of an arbitrary, unplanned event.



It should also be noted that this "day-age theory" does not mean that the "days" ("ages") were defined by millions of years of light, then evening, and then millions of years of darkness, etc. It means that "day" in Genesis means an age of unspecified length during which solar days carried on as usual, as we have seen.

Moses' purpose in Genesis one
Why would Moses enumerate creation through six "days" if he meant "ages" rather than a twenty-four hour period? Moses' purpose in Genesis one was to show that God created the universe in distinct stages, that there was an orderly plan to God's method of creation and God was working toward an ultimate goal, the climax of creation--mankind. This is in contrast to an idea that the world was created randomly or that God was not working toward a final purpose in creating.[9]

Moses is showing that God had a plan for how He would create the world, and that He did it in stages, not a disordered clutter. The stages did not mix into each other, because one ended before the next began (indicated by his placing the boundaries on the "days" of evening and morning). This affirms God's control and demonstrates the careful unfolding of His plans. As we will see later, yom was the only way that Moses could have indicated long, indefinite stages of time.

We have seen that the word for "day" does not require a twenty-four hour interpretation, that it is actually used in some unexpected places to mean something other than twenty-four hours, and that the structure of the sentences in Genesis suggests that days are to be taken in a way other than to indicate a twenty four hour period. Thus, the Hebrew text allows for long days. Now we will see that the text not only allows for this interpretation, but demands it.


The events of the sixth day require more than twenty four hours
On the sixth day of creation (1) God created the higher forms of animals, (2) God created Adam, (3) God planted a garden in Eden, (4) God made to grow the vegetation in Eden, (5) God gave Adam the responsibility for tending the garden, (6) Adam became lonely, (7) God had Adam name all of the animals, in search of a companion, (8) Adam was still lonely after this, (9) God put Adam into a deep sleep and made Eve from his rib, (10) Eve was presented to Adam as his new partner, and finally (11) God gave them instructions to multiply and care for the earth. (See Genesis 1:24-30; 2:4-24). How could all of these events have been completed in only twenty-four hours? At the very least, they would have taken several months.

Take, for example, the naming of the animals. While Adam did not name each individual animal, he did name each species, or group, of animals. A conservative estimate is that there were 3,000 species of land animals and birds to name. (The Bible says he named all of the birds of the air and the beasts of the field. "Beasts of the field" is not limited to mean livestock, but also includes all land mammals.) Adam would have had to name approximately one species every 10 seconds in order to finish in even 20 hours!


Some argue that Adam was able to perform these tasks at superhuman speed, since he was without sin at this point. However, Scripture makes no connection between intelligence and sinfulness. Additionally, Jesus was without sin and did not perform tasks at a superhuman rate.
It would not seem like God to "hurry up" the process of naming the animals, since one main purpose was to, in a sense, fellowship with and become familiar with the animals so that he would recognize his need for a companion like him (and then God would fulfill his need and create Eve). Taking 10 seconds per animal would provide nowhere near the necessary time for this familiarity and fellowship.

Most convincingly, when Eve was finally presented to Adam, he said, "This at last is bone of my bones..." Alan Hayword notes that all commentaries are agreed that the expression translated "at last" means "now, at length," as it is translated elsewhere.[11] The Hebrew indicates that Adam had been kept waiting a long time for Eve, not a few hours.

The length of the seventh day is more than twenty four hours
Each of the first six creation days is said to have had a definite beginning and ending "there was evening, and there was morning...." However, there is no such statement about the seventh day. "Given the parallel structure marking the creation days, this direct change in form for the seventh day strongly suggests that this day has (or had) not yet ended."[12] This possibility is directly confirmed in Hebrews 4:4-11, which teaches us that God's Sabbath rest of the seventh day is still continuing. Due to the parallel structure of the creation week, since the seventh day is long, the others must be too.

Some point out that Scripture refers to God's rest in the past tense "He rested." But this no way implies that He has finished resting, and even if it did it (which it does not) it still would not be saying that the day is over. For example, if at 7 o'clock I say that a person "took a nap" at 6, I am saying absolutely nothing about whether he is awake yet or not. It would be possible for him to still be sleeping. And if he is awake, it could still be the same day. The biblical text, however, makes no mention of God ceasing from His rest. Hebrews 4 is clear and direct positive evidence that God's Sabbath rest continues into the present, making the seventh day, at the very least several thousand years long.



















 
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joyouspirit

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As far as i could remember, my brother in law and I argue when I become so literal about the Bible, at least that's according to him. I would say even though I accepted Jesus Christ in my life 6 years ago, I am still a newbie, still hanging on and just walking by faith. I love the stories in the Bible, David and Goliath, Esther, Job, Noah's ark, I'm just like a child waiting for my Father in Heaven to come and take us home In his arms forever!
 
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christianmomof3

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I just saw this post and I do not have the answers to all your questions. Only God Himself has the answers. I pray that He will reveal Himself to you and that He will be your Peace, Hope, Faith and Love. May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.
 
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jehovahway

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Either the holy bible is all true are you cant believe any of it.
Its satans business to lie to you.
you have demon spirits on you trying to decieve you into believing a lie.
Does not the holy bible say dought and un-belief comes from who,SATAN OF COURSE
SATAN HAS MILLIONS OF DEMON SPIRITS ON THE EARTH TO LIE AND CONTROL YOUR THINKING.
http://www.demonbuster.com
 
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