- Aug 6, 2005
- 17,496
- 1,568
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Lutheran
- Marital Status
- Private
- Politics
- US-Republican
1. I don't think the Immaculate Conception and Assumption of Mary were doctrines at the time. They certainly were teachings in the early 16th Century, but they didn't become dogmas until the 19th and 20th Centuries and I'm not sure t hey were doctrines in the 16th - although the "doctrine" status in the RCC seems very "fuzzy" to me.
2. Without a doubt, Luther was passionate in His devotion to Our Lady and held to all the current Marian views (with the possible exception of the Co-Redemptrix). One can find statements that challenge this (one can ALWAYS find a variety of things from Luther if one is dedicated enough to find a snippet). But Luther never taught these as dogma. When those around him rejected these things, Luther defended the teachings but didn't condemn anyone or accuse anyone of heresy or even error. Protestants have a strong tradition of "pious opinion." For Lutherans, this is a veiw that has strong historic, ecumenical support and is not unbiblical and thus is permitted. The Marian views all fall into this. My own Lutheran pastor (raised very Catholic) is also very passionate in his Mariology and embraces the EV, Immaculate Conception, Assumption, etc. He does NOT teach these as doctrines but only as his "pious opinions" and as such, t hat's fine. Some don't agree with him on any of these, some agree with him on all of them (probably half of my congregation is former Catholics), a lot of them are pretty neutral (that probably includes me) - neither embracing the views or rejecting them. Lutherans are simply FAR more comfortable with mystery and less eager to be legalistically dogmatic about things where Scripture is silent, especially if Tradition is late or mixed or weak. Like other Protestants, we speak of "adiaphora" - that is a matter about which we cannot be dogmatic or legalistic. It doesn't mean we can't have an opinion about it - even a passionate one, but it remains adiaphron. In the Lutheranism, there are two Marian dogmas: That Mary was a virgin at the birth of Our Lord and that Mary is the Mother of God. I believe it's the same in the EO, I think they have the same two Marian dogmas, although they regard the EV to be doctine and Lutherans embrace that as adiaphora and permitted pious opinion.
? I knew about Luther and Calvin's views on this YEARS before I became a Lutheran. I think their views are widely known in Protestantism, although I think a LOT of Catholics would be shocked at how UNradical Luther was, and Othrodox might be surprised at Lutheranism - at times we are closer than the EO is the RC. At times, anyway....
I gotta smile that you are "astonished" LOL.... Luther was a Catholic monk, who overwhelmingly agreed with Catholicism. I've often commented that I agree with probably 95% of the 2,865 points in the latest edition of the Catholic Catechism, which wouldn't suprise me is maybe twice what it was in Luther's day. Many of the 5% I disagree with wouldn't have been around before Trent.
Unlike the EO, Lutherans and Catholics are on the "same page" on original sin. Recall that Luther was an Augustinian monk - and of all the ECF that he quoted (and he quoted them often), Augustine was the one he quoted the most. Here's one of those subjects where Lutherans and Catholics are closer than the RC and EO. Of course, the Immaculate Conception is a view unique to the CC, no other denomination shares it. But Lutherans nonetheless accept its historicity and do not view it as unbiblical - but for us, that hardly qualifies it for dogma.
As I understand it, the "hail Mary" prayer was not a part of the Rosary until Trent. Luther prayed the Rosary daily - and commended it to all - but it didn't include that. Today, Lutherans have no problem with the Rosary (I have OFTEN spoken highly of it here at CF, I think I even have a thread about it at GT). The issue Lutherans have is a part that came long after Luther's death, the "....pray for us now and at the moment of our death." While my OWN position is that this is harmless (it doesn't trouble me at all), Lutherans argue that no one need to pray for us at the moment of our death since by faith we are saved, and Luther came to embrace in time that praying TO the saints is improper (not sure I agree with Lutherans on that).
As are MANY Lutherans to this day, including me. Unlike the Catholics here, I DO stat e that I worship Her ("worship" properly understood). With my FULL, UNseparated brothers and sisters, I regard Her as the Mother of God ( and our spiritual Mother) and I hold Her in highest esteem, I revere, adore and love Her. And yup, we call Her "Our Lady" too.
"So many other Catholic doctrines"....
Pax
- Josiah
.
Upvote
0