My Problem with the Invisible Church

Anoetos · Oct 17, 2011

telling the world the deep truth that we are all sinners in need of a savior, and that the grace by which he saves us is free, never gets old and that is the primary business of the church.

this is what i was referring to when i said your church doesn't do it.

your "gospel" is not free.

i am sorry to have to tell you this, and i fully expect to be reported to the mods for "being mean" or something, but i can't help it; your "gospel" has works, done by you, added to what Christ has done. and this probably explains your church's excellence in doing good deeds: it is trying to earn a wage.

ours does not. ours is biblical. yours is not.

it follows then, that we, as church are doing and being what Jesus intended.

you are not.

ivebeenshown · Oct 17, 2011

Anoetos said:
telling the world the deep truth that we are all sinners in need of a savior, and that the grace by which he saves us is free, never gets old and that is the primary business of the church.

this is what i was referring to when i said your church doesn't do it.

your "gospel" is not free.

i am sorry to have to tell you this, and i fully expect to be reported to the mods for "being mean" or something, but i can't help it; your "gospel" has works, done by you, added to what Christ has done. and this probably explains your church's excellence in doing good deeds: it is trying to earn a wage.

ours does not. ours is biblical. yours is not.

it follows then, that we, as church are doing and being what Jesus intended.

you are not.

Anoetos, I assure you, that if you believe such things I will not be angry with you. I would ask that you rephrase such beliefs so that they do not bear any resemblance of attacking, because some may take it as such, not recognizing that you are voicing your beliefs in the way you see it appropriate.

I would like for you to examine the words of Christ, who prayed that we might be one so that the world may believe the Truth: that the Father sent Christ the Messiah, who died that we may have eternal life. The world cannot see the unity of our Spirit, because the world, not being of God, does not have that same Spirit with which to see the Truth. Therefore even as Christ manifested in the flesh to show God to the world, we should strive for a visible and unified body so that our testament of Christ may be stronger.

We do not believe that man may obtain the graces of God by doing things of his own accord; rather, the Holy Spirit must be the source of a man's urge to do such a thing before any good deed may deserve merit. In this way, all of our merits before God are due to Christ, as the Spirit motivates us yet we truly perform the actions. It is by our actions that we will be judged, and we are thankful that the Spirit does such a thing for us, and that God gave us the gift of reconciliation so that we might be found pure and fruitful before him. He removes the bad fruit, and coaxes the good fruit. He ultimately prunes the tree.

tadoflamb · Oct 18, 2011

Anoetos said:
Tada,

Your church does a lot of good works.

I am not sure what an "invisible church onlyist" is, but my guess is that you mean "Protestant".

I will admit that you have a point. We do generally lag behind your church in the doing of good deeds.

But this begs the question, what is the purpose of the church? The Church, mind you, not individual Christians, or even Christians acting together. I am not entirely certain that the Church has, as it's primary duty, the doing of good deeds, the feeding of the hungry, clothing of the naked, etc.

Of course, Christians should do these things, but ISTM that the primary purpose of the church is to be the means by which sinners are brought into a saving relationship with Christ. The good things that Christians are to do they do having been prepared in the church to do them.

So then, I see the primary purpose of the church to be the preaching of the Gospel and the equipping of the saints. We do this. Your church does not, for all it's good deeds.

I like to keep things simple, so for me, a protestant is someone who is a properly baptized Christian and is neither Catholic nor Orthodox. However, in this case, when I refer to the invisible-church-onlyiest, I am refering mostly to those closer to the fringes of Christianity and not so much the mainstream protestant denominations. The invisible-church-onlyist could also be known as a 'solo scripturist' or a 'me-and-my-biblist'. You might hear them say such things as 'I am neither Catholic nor protestant'. The mainstream protestant denominations, on the other hand, yield somewhat to a visible Church (more or less)

From the 25th Chapter of the Westminster Confession; Of the Church:

II. The visible Church, which is also catholic or universal under the Gospel (not confined to one nation, as before under the law), consists of all those throughout the world that profess the true religion;[2] and of their children:[3] and is the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ,[4] the house and family of God,[5] out of which there is no ordinary possibility of salvation.[6]

IV. This catholic Church has been sometimes more, sometimes less visible.[8] And particular Churches, which are members thereof, are more or less pure, according as the doctrine of the Gospel is taught and embraced, ordinances administered, and public worship performed more or less purely in them.[9]

(emphasis mine)

Westminster Confession of Faith

True to form, it's the mainstream protestant denominations that are doing some good works, but you have to go some distance from my parish to get to them. They're is one denomination within our boundaries that does offer food boxes for 2 hours on Tuesday mornings, but they're tied in with the Community Food Bank, have to follow their restrictions and therefore can't operate automonously. In the Visible Church we have the freedom to follow as the Spirit guides us.

One of the more beautiful things about being a visible member of the Visible Church is that she gives us the opportunity to serve others. Inside the church is the Gospel received, and outside the church, through our service, the Gospel is applied. In that way, the Gospel becomes a living breathing entity. It's something we can apply to our daily lives and something we can use to guide us. There's portions of the Gospels, especially certain chapter in Luke, which read like a working manual for charitable activities, not to mention the famous passage of Matthew 25, 'whatever you do unto the least of these'. The Visible Church understands that the best way to show someone a tangible sign of God's love is to feed someone. This too is laced throughout the Gospels.

So, I have to ask you the same rhetorical question as I ask the dozen or so denominations within 15 minutes of where I sit. What Gospel is that you're listening to? I used to assume that the lack of their works was more of a result of their division than a theological ideaology that caring for the needy isn't important. But maybe that isn't so. Maybe they really would say 'peace be with you' to a hungry neighbor and then not give them a sandwich. I don't know. What I do know, is that you and the invisible church don't have a collective evangelical message, and this Gospel you say you preach is sullied by the the fog of denominationalism. Which Gospel? I might ask. Certainly not the Gospel which tells us to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, etc. etc.

Anoetos · Oct 18, 2011

A discussion of merit is far afield here and I refer having taken us to it. I also am sorry if anyone perceives my remarks as "attacking". They were prompted by tada's characterization of "invisible church onlyists" as persons who do not, generally, participate in good works.

Besides the fact that there is no such thing as an "invisible church onlyist" and beside the fact that we do, in fact, perform a great many good deeds, I merely wanted to outline why I think it is that your church places such a high premium on them. You see your good works as central to your salvation, a part of the Gospel, for all intents and purposes. We don't, and neither does the Bible.

We see them as fruit and outworking of what God has done in us. They are uncoerced acts of love that flow from hearts set free. I hear you saying that you believe the same when you say that they are fruits of the spirit, but really, how can that be so when you believe they have salvific merit? You do them for a wage, whether you attribute them to the movements of your own will or the work of the Spirit in you, it is you who take the credit and the benefits you perceive as accruing to them. It is you who receive glory for them.

Not so with us.

Anoetos · Oct 18, 2011

Tada, the Gospel, the Good News that, in Christ, God has become man and borne our sins and worked our salvation at the cross, is not centrally about feeding the hungry, clothing the naked and caring for the ill, as important as they may be (and I say this as a healthcare professional). The truth of what Christ has done should create in us a pure desire to do these things, and where it does, we have evidence of election, proof that those doing these things are in fact redeemed. And really, this is what is meant by the idea that the true church has an invisible aspect. But the deeds themselves do not save and are not at the core of the Gospel, which is, essentially, a message, not a deed although it is a message about a deed which always creates deeds in us.

ivebeenshown · Oct 18, 2011

Anoetos said:
A discussion of merit is far afield here and I refer having taken us to it. I also am sorry if anyone perceives my remarks as "attacking". They were prompted by tada's characterization of "invisible church onlyists" as persons who do not, generally, participate in good works.

There is no big problem Anoetos.

Besides the fact that there is no such thing as an "invisible church onlyist" and beside the fact that we do, in fact, perform a great many good deeds, I merely wanted to outline why I think it is that your church places such a high premium on them. You see your good works as central to your salvation, a part of the Gospel, for all intents and purposes. We don't, and neither does the Bible.

We see them as fruit and outworking of what God has done in us. They are uncoerced acts of love that flow from hearts set free. I hear you saying that you believe the same when you say that they are fruits of the spirit, but really, how can that be so when you believe they have salvific merit? You do them for a wage, whether you attribute them to the movements of your own will or the work of the Spirit in you, it is you who take the credit and the benefits you perceive as accruing to them. It is you who receive glory for them.

Not so with us.

Anoetos, I assure you that the Catholic Church teaches that all good fruits are of the Spirit. It is the Spirit which motivates us to do the good works, and when they are done, we have truly performed the works, although they proceeded from the Spirit of God. In this way, while we acknowledge that God renders to every man according to his deeds (Romans 2), we also acknowledge that we truly plant, and truly water, yet God yields the increase. Ultimately, God receives glory for enabling us to such work. For what would such fruits be without the Spirit of God coaxing them out of us?

I encourage you to examine the fifteenth chapter of John. Jesus is the True Vine, and his Father is the husbandman. Branches are cut out based on whether they bear fruit or not, and those which do bear fruit are pruned of the bad so that they may bear more good fruit. However, the branches which are not cut off and thrown into the fire are only able to grow their fruit because they abide in Christ; it is Christ which allows the branch to grow the fruit. Nonetheless, the Father judges the branches, not the Vine, based on their fruit.

bbbbbbb · Oct 18, 2011

ivebeenshown said:
There is no big problem Anoetos.

Anoetos, I assure you that the Catholic Church teaches that all good fruits are of the Spirit. It is the Spirit which motivates us to do the good works, and when they are done, we have truly performed the works, although they proceeded from the Spirit of God. In this way, while we acknowledge that God renders to every man according to his deeds (Romans 2), we also acknowledge that we truly plant, and truly water, yet God yields the increase. Ultimately, God receives glory for enabling us to such work. For what would such fruits be without the Spirit of God coaxing them out of us?

I encourage you to examine the fifteenth chapter of John. Jesus is the True Vine, and his Father is the husbandman. Branches are cut out based on whether they bear fruit or not, and those which do bear fruit are pruned of the bad so that they may bear more good fruit. However, the branches which are not cut off and thrown into the fire are only able to grow their fruit because they abide in Christ; it is Christ which allows the branch to grow the fruit. Nonetheless, the Father judges the branches, not the Vine, based on their fruit.

Unfortunately, your views are at variance with the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I will provide one example to start -

1477 "This treasury includes as well the prayers and good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary. They are truly immense, unfathomable, and even pristine in their value before God. In the treasury, too, are the prayers and good works of all the saints, all those who have followed in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by his grace have made their lives holy and carried out the mission in the unity of the Mystical Body."

This is from a discussion concerning the Treasury of Merit. The basic concept is that Merit (which includes those things listed above) can be transferred by the Church to individuals to aid in their personal salvation and to assist in reducing the torment of Purgatory. If you apply your concept of good works to the concept of the Treasury of Merit, it simply becomes nonsensical because no good works, or merit, is needed for salvation.

By the way, the Treasury of Merit is utterly and completely invisible.

ivebeenshown · Oct 19, 2011

bbbbbbb said:
Unfortunately, your views are at variance with the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I will provide one example to start -

1477 "This treasury includes as well the prayers and good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary. They are truly immense, unfathomable, and even pristine in their value before God. In the treasury, too, are the prayers and good works of all the saints, all those who have followed in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by his grace have made their lives holy and carried out the mission in the unity of the Mystical Body."

This is from a discussion concerning the Treasury of Merit. The basic concept is that Merit (which includes those things listed above) can be transferred by the Church to individuals to aid in their personal salvation and to assist in reducing the torment of Purgatory. If you apply your concept of good works to the concept of the Treasury of Merit, it simply becomes nonsensical because no good works, or merit, is needed for salvation.

I'm sorry, but I do not understand how my views are at variance with the Catechism. You state: "it simply becomes nonsensical because no good works, or merit, is needed for salvation." I do not see how this logically follows. Merit is always needed for salvation. All of our merits, including those of the Virgin Mary and the Saints, have proceeded from the grace of God, the charity of Christ.

By the way, the Treasury of Merit is utterly and completely invisible.

Merit of any sort is invisible, is it not?

Anoetos · Oct 19, 2011

Why would you need merit other than or beyond that of Christ?

Of course, you will tell us that all merit, even that of Mary and the saints stems from Him, but this is a convenient fiction, a way of whistling past the theological graveyard, as it were: you don't take credit but you get it.

ivebeenshown · Oct 19, 2011

Anoetos said:
Why would you need merit other than or beyond that of Christ?

Of course, you will tell us that all merit, even that of Mary and the saints stems from Him, but this is a convenient fiction, a way of whistling past the theological graveyard, as it were: you don't take credit but you get it.

Well, Paul plants, Apollos waters, but God gives the increase. God has chosen to associate men with his work of grace. Paul wrote to Timothy, saying that if Timothy continued in the doctrine, he would save himself and them that heard him. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God, which is preached by men. In this way men are associated with salvation, yet it is truly the grace of God.

bbbbbbb · Oct 19, 2011

ivebeenshown said:
I'm sorry, but I do not understand how my views are at variance with the Catechism. You state: "it simply becomes nonsensical because no good works, or merit, is needed for salvation." I do not see how this logically follows. Merit is always needed for salvation. All of our merits, including those of the Virgin Mary and the Saints, have proceeded from the grace of God, the charity of Christ.

Merit of any sort is invisible, is it not?

Merit is in the eye of the beholder. I once dated a girl whose father expected to be verbally recognized by the pastor of his church as being an exceptional Christian every Sunday he was in attendance. He was a major contributor, so his merit was well-known and appreciated. I see the same sort of thing going on in Catholic churches, as well, when the bulletins carry paid advertising by various parishioners.

The only merit which saves is that of God. Apart from His merit there is no salvation. All of our righteous deeds are as filthy (menstrual) rags in His sight (Isaiah 64:6).

JacktheCatholic · Oct 21, 2011

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