• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

FishFace

Senior Veteran
Jan 12, 2007
4,535
169
37
✟28,130.00
Faith
Atheist

You have to understand that real science is quite dissimilar to Baumgardners "clever-sounding speculation." How much heat does he say is produced? How much will this reduce the viscosity of the underlying magma and how will that affect the coefficient of friction? What are his assumptions, where is his data?

Using supercomputers


Can we scrutinize his model?

his model predicts a peak speed of .............. not a "slow" 4 metres per minute but faster in the realm of metres/second so plates could have moved over distances in the order of 10,000 km!

Take a guess at how much energy that would need. Where did it come from?

Super heated steam would have created incredible, superheated and deadling precipitation like the 40 days and 40 nights of rain (deluge) described in the Bible.

Noah would have been poached!

The first scientist to forward the theory of moving plates on/in the crust of the earth, in 1859, was a Christian.

So were quite a few people in the past. Newton was a Christian, for example. That really changes nothing.



So all freshwater fish had to... hang on a minute - evolve into their present forms from earlier ones?

All the bears on the earth could have developed (not evolved) from a single pair of bears in 4,000+ years.


Please provide a mechanism - other than evolution - by which a species can change over time. By the way, I've no doubt that evolution could not have been responsible for this; 4,000 years is far to short a period of time.

A bear harvested recently in my country, Canada, was half Polar Bear and half Grizzly Bear.

Source please.

God created the first bear with the genetic potential to diversify to many types of bears. The same with dogs, cats, horses (i.e. zebras), "cows", and people.

Evidence please.

All humans came from a single pair, Adam and Eve.

Then why do we not see a genetic bottleneck characteristic of a period when a population is very small? Why do molecular clocks indicate a most recent common male ancestor in the order of 10s of thousands of years ago?

Rapid plate tectonics (movement) and continent development could have continued after the release of the animals so some species could have been cut off (i.e. isolation) from other continents in the case of Australia.


This doesn't explain why we only find marsupials in Australia and Polar bears in the Arctic. Are we to understand that there was only one pair of marsupials on board the Ark who went to Australia? Because otherwise there's no reason for the various species of marsupial to all be clustered in one geographical area. With polar bears, this rapid plate movement would presumably have meant that wherever the bears were wasn't the arctic - how did they survive?
Presumably you will say they "developed" from some other bear, so I await your reply on the mechanism which allows such diversification in a matter of centuries. We can assume this process happened over significantly less than 4,000 years since written records (which began before the flood, apparently, but lets assume they sprang up soon after) don't mention any hyper-evolution/development, and we haven't observed any of it happening recently. Hence species must have diversified within a couple of thousand years or so to be fixed by the time people started writing about them.

Of course, we are assuming that the animals actually survived - so the rather peckish lion didn't nibble on the zebra as they were leaving in an orderly fashion towards what would become Africa for no apparent reason.

Back on polar bears, we need to remember that ice is lighter than water and so a global flood would lift a polar icecap and float it off somewhere. Obviously this hasn't happened.

You goofed on this one, FishFace. There were eight humans that survived the flood.


But at most 7 breeding pairs of a particular species of animal. Either way, we don't observe a corresponding genetic bottleneck, and we don't have any explanation for how an unviable population repopulated the earth.

"the average annual growth rate since the Flood need only have been one-fourth the present growth rate to produce the world's present population in the 4000 years (minimum) since that time.


Really? The annual population growth rate at the moment is estimated at about 1.14. one fourth of that rate is 1.035. (If we divided the figure 1.14 by 4 we'd get a decreasing population.)
Starting with a human population of 8 people, 4,000 years ago, with a rate of change of 1.06 we want the sum of a geometric series with 200 terms (generation time = 20 years as a reasonable estimate)
The sum of a geometric series of n terms with common ratio r and first term a is:

a(1-r^(n+1))/(1-r)
=8(1-1.035^201)/(-0.035)
=about 230,000

But this is not the point. A small initial population is unworkable. In a population of eight people, or their offspring, if one of you succumbs to disease, or becomes infertile, then that puts a huge dent in your result. Worse, it's not viable. Assuming they survived this, we should see a record of this in the genome, but we don't.

All of which indicates that the evolutionary scenario, which assumes that human populations have been on the earth for about a million years, is absurd. The whole universe could not hold all the people! HMM"


This, of course, is silly. If the paper were actually correct, then the earth would fill up with humans and then the death rate would have increased due to overcrowding. As it happens, population growth was of course rather less than a fourth of current values, as good old GCSE geography taught me. Referring back to our friend the Demographic Transition Model, in Stage 1, birth and death rates were very similar resulting in almost no population growth. It is only recently, with the advances of medicine, that population growth has become so high.

God created animals and man “perfect” (very good) during the creation week and ever since then the genetic code has been deteriorating.

First of all, be careful with your terms. The genetic code is how sequences of bases correspond to amino acids. That hasn't changed one bit.
Now, I would like you to define deterioration and find some evidence of this deterioration. Taking into account that all the marsupials somehow "deteriorated" from the Ur-Marsupial, and all the bears from their bear ancestor and so on. Remember to define deterioration.
Oh, and a mechanism by which this occurs would be nice too - because as far as I know, mutations occur pretty much randomly. That would preclude pure deterioration.

This is why humans lived extremely long lives (1,000+ years)

Evidence, please.

in early history and why “incest” (incest became forbidden during the time of Moses), or inter-marrying at the time of Noah did not create the problems we see with inbreeding today.

Mechanism, please. We know exactly how and why incest is bad these days. I would like to know exactly what was different, rather than this rather vague notion of "deterioration." What exactly was different, why did that make incest dandy, and how did it change.
 
Upvote 0

FishFace

Senior Veteran
Jan 12, 2007
4,535
169
37
✟28,130.00
Faith
Atheist

I know your hypothesis, but, it being sorely lacking in details, am disinclined to accept it as realistic. You are saying that two bees built a nest on their own, populated it, on their own, without succumbing to disease or otherwise dying. You are saying that all this happened sufficiently quickly and without mishap to populate the entire world with bees, all the while they had to somehow repopulate the world with plants from, we assume, a few seeds stored by Noah. And they had to do it on land that was presumably waterlogged and covered in sand.

By the way, just so you're aware, we're just scraping the surface of problems with the Flood story.
 
Upvote 0

Wiccan_Child

Contributor
Mar 21, 2005
19,419
673
Bristol, UK
✟46,731.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
Nope. Noah only took things that breathed through their nostrils, and bees don't have nostrils (like all insects, they breath through distinctly un-nostrily spiracles).
So no bees post-flood. No other insects either. So what happened to them?
 
Upvote 0

Baggins

Senior Veteran
Mar 8, 2006
4,789
474
At Sea
✟22,482.00
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
UK-Labour
Thanks for the heads up on my faith icon. It was wrong, but now it is back to what it shoould be. Somehow it got changed, perhaps a careless keystroke by me.


No problem, your stand point did seem a bit bizarre for a pantheist
 
Upvote 0

Lakercom

Member
Oct 30, 2007
199
21
Prince George BC
✟23,153.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Nope. Noah only took things that breathed through their nostrils, and bees don't have nostrils (like all insects, they breath through distinctly un-nostrily spiracles).
So no bees post-flood. No other insects either. So what happened to them?
Good point, wiccan_Child. I have checked on your point and insects were probably not on the ark. A 90 second audio clip by Ken Ham addresses this. http://blogs.answersingenesis.org/aroundtheworld/2007/07/19/insects-were-they-on-the-ark/

Some insects could have been carried onto the ark with the animals and some of the remaining one million different insect species would have survived by taking refuge on floating debris and/or their eggs would have survived by either of these means. and if neither occured and they still do exist today, there was another way.

The Bible has reached a level of credibility with me that it is a reliable textbook for everything, including science.
 
Upvote 0

Lakercom

Member
Oct 30, 2007
199
21
Prince George BC
✟23,153.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
If God made Jonah survive in the "belly" of a "fish" (whale shark?) for three days and three nights before getting "spit" out (and he did), He can make it so insects survive the flood. Wonderful, how this God of ours is.
 
Upvote 0

Lakercom

Member
Oct 30, 2007
199
21
Prince George BC
✟23,153.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives


You’re right; evolution could not be responsible for this. Evolution does not exist – never did and never will.

Beef breeders and dog breeders are coming up with newer breeds all the time. An example of this would be plant breeders who develop more saline tolerant seed for growing crops in more saline soils. It is true that newer breeds of species can be selected quicker in a lab with a purpose driven selection procedure, so the time line could be somewhat tight for fresh water species to develop. When the waters “subsided” after the flood and lakes appeared on dry land some of the salt-water species could have survived if they had a higher tolerance for fresh water. The (inland) lakes would have been salty to begin with and as fresh water gradually displaced the salt-water (assuming the lake had an outflow), the salt-water species would have had more time to gradually change. A question you might have for me is why “landlocked” lakes are not salty today. I don’t necessary have the right answers to all your questions but perhaps salt is gradually removed from water and that is why the oceans are not saltier today. If what evolutionists say is true, the oceans have been filling with salt for billions of years.
 
Upvote 0

Lakercom

Member
Oct 30, 2007
199
21
Prince George BC
✟23,153.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Baggins said:
I assume that you are unaware that the continents have come together and moved apart more than once in the past and they will do again in the future?
Yup

Baggins said:
Why would there be no mountains at the time of Noah? Are you adding things to the bible which aren't there? I think Christianity regards that as naughty.
Evidence?
Prove to me from the Bible that I am wrong. Here is a link to the KJV http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/10 You can download it for free ("e-book"). The book of Genesis should be sufficient as all other books deal primarily with post flood history.

Baggins said:
It leaves you with the same problem as before; Baumgardners model is rubbish and it leads to an earth that is a lump or molten rock.
Really. Somehow I am not convinced. Is the earth not a lump now, mind you a spherical "dirt lump"? One part of a theory of flood geology is that there was a 40,000-mile volcano that occurred at the fault lines. That would have been hot ....... oooooh.

It seems to me there is a bit of paranoia when the name John Baumgardner is mentioned amongst you and your "colleagues". I remember reading an active thread on this forum one day when one of your sympathizers came on saying Dr. Baumgardner was debating on another web site and it was like this "scout" was in a panic to rally a regiment to oppose him.
 
Upvote 0

FishFace

Senior Veteran
Jan 12, 2007
4,535
169
37
✟28,130.00
Faith
Atheist
If God made Jonah survive in the "belly" of a "fish" (whale shark?) for three days and three nights before getting "spit" out (and he did), He can make it so insects survive the flood. Wonderful, how this God of ours is.

Why did you go to all the bother of trying to explain the Flood and so on in natural terms, and then right at the end, it seems you're stumped and you just pull out the supernatural?
That's not explaining, that's ad hoc nonsense - as soon as anyone brings up something you can't deal with - bang - it must have been divine intervention.
 
Upvote 0

Loudmouth

Contributor
Aug 26, 2003
51,417
6,143
Visit site
✟98,025.00
Faith
Agnostic
The Bible has reached a level of credibility with me that it is a reliable textbook for everything, including science.

Then maybe you can help me out with this. Where are these windows in the firmament? How does NASA get the space shuttle through these windows?

Also, could you politely point us to the pre-flood, syn-flood, and post-flood sediments?
 
Upvote 0

FishFace

Senior Veteran
Jan 12, 2007
4,535
169
37
✟28,130.00
Faith
Atheist
You’re right; evolution could not be responsible for this. Evolution does not exist – never did and never will.


Then you don't know what evolution means. Evolution is defined as the change of allele frequency over time.
An allele is a form of a particular gene.

Beef breeders and dog breeders are coming up with newer breeds all the time.


Does the frequency of alleles change over time? Yes. Then that's an example of evolution. Even most of your creationist friends accept that evolution can account for the small changes we have been observing since the theory first arrived.
Unfortunately no-one on this side of the debate says any mechanism can account for diversification of a few "kinds" into all the species we see today in a mere 4,000 years. You're welcome to suggest one.


But your average fresh water fish in salt water and see what happens. It dies. Do the opposite with a saltwater fish. It dies.
This happens because blood must be maintained isotonically with the cytosol. Very few fishes have the ability to maintain this if they live in the wrong salinity of water.

The (inland) lakes would have been salty to begin with and as fresh water gradually displaced the salt-water (assuming the lake had an outflow), the salt-water species would have had more time to gradually change.

4,000 years is not enough time for any kind of "gradual change."


"Perhaps salt is gradually removed" is not a very good answer.

If what evolutionists say is true, the oceans have been filling with salt for billions of years.

... You firstly need to remember that it's not some evil "evolutionist" conspiracy going on here - it was, if I recall, Christian geologists who discovered the earth must be old. There is only so much salt on earth, so I'm not sure why there's going to be any problem there.

But you still haven't answered the fundamental question of how did life diversify into all the species we see today.
 
Upvote 0

FishFace

Senior Veteran
Jan 12, 2007
4,535
169
37
✟28,130.00
Faith
Atheist
 
Upvote 0

ranmaonehalf

Senior Member
Nov 5, 2006
1,488
56
✟24,473.00
Faith
Atheist
Show me how the Omphalos Hypothesis is deceptive without disrespecting a literal interpretation of Genesis 1.
  • The intent of this thread is to show that one would have to deny a literal interpretation of Genesis 1 in order to claim Omphalism.

why even bother with that, if you live in this reality you have to deny a literal (interpretation?) of G1.

if you still speak to invisible friends well.....
 
Upvote 0

futzman

Regular Member
Jul 26, 2005
527
18
71
✟771.00
Faith
Atheist
Politics
US-Libertarian


What he said. Perfect rebuttal fish.
 
Upvote 0

Lakercom

Member
Oct 30, 2007
199
21
Prince George BC
✟23,153.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Why did you go to all the bother of trying to explain the Flood and so on in natural terms, and then right at the end, it seems you're stumped and you just pull out the supernatural?
How or why am I waiting until the end to "pull out" the supernatural? The flood was predicted, purposed, and followed through on by God. It started with God, just like creation:
Genesis 1:1, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth”.
Regarding the flood, God told us the why, when, where and who, but he did not give a complete narrative so such things as the how can be hypothesized. That is why this discussion is taking place. Perhaps I am going easy on you and not stretching you enough about the supernatural.



FishFace said:
That's not explaining, that's ad hoc nonsense - as soon as anyone brings up something you can't deal with - bang - it must have been divine intervention.
This question of “ad hoc” was making me weary so I looked it up in the Mirriam-Webster dictionary.
Definition: for the particular end or case at hand without consideration of wider application
Scientific study and investigation requires a hypothesis to have any chance of making a conclusion and/or getting closer to the truth. When a crime investigator tries to solve a crime he first has to acknowledge there has been one. If you and I were working for CSI and one day I went to investigate a murder scene on a day when you were not available and the following day I told you about it and you said, “can you prove it”, what is the chance of us working together of solving it. In fact, after the crime is acknowledged the best way is to find a suspect and then ASSUME he did it. Then all possible motives, alibis, associations, further evidence and detailed scrutiny are done. I think your opinion and criticism of the flood is flawed because you are not using an ad hoc procedure. Take your blindfold off.

The Bible says that if one rejects Christ and the Bible it is sin. By taking an anti-biblical worldview you are jeopardizing your future. Guy Grissholm is no fan of Christians and their reputation as researchers but if you worked for him you would be fired.
 
Upvote 0

Baggins

Senior Veteran
Mar 8, 2006
4,789
474
At Sea
✟22,482.00
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
UK-Labour

Evidence?

Evidence for what? You have to add loads of ad hoc explanation that is extra-biblical to try and meake sense.

I can give you loads of evidence that there were mountains at the time of Noah, I can take you to a mountain, we can measure its height from sea level, we can then take measurements about the amount od erosion that occurs over it and take gps measurements to see whether it is getting higher or lower. From this we should be able to make a reasonable estimate as to its height 4000 years ago.

I think the answer would be; notthat much different.




Prove to me from the Bible that I am wrong. Here is a link to the KJV http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/10 You can download it for free ("e-book"). The book of Genesis should be sufficient as all other books deal primarily with post flood history.

The bible doesn't say there were no mountains at the time of Noah, it doesn't explain where all the water for the flood came from and went to, it does make any mention of runaway plate tectonics and continents moving around like balls on a pinball machine.

All that is ad hoc nonsense that you have to add to the bible in order to make sense of Genesis in light of modern science.

All it does is reduce your religion to a laughing stock which is why most Christians don't do it and are embarassed by those that do. Most recently you could read the stinging rebuke to Creationism that Dr Rowan Williams, The Archbishop of Canterbury, wrote:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,,1735404,00.html


I believe the Pope isn't too happy either.


Really. Somehow I am not convinced.

To be honest I am not trying to convince you, I am just pointing out to the lurkers that are here to be convinced one way or the other how laughable your beliefs are in this case.

Having come up against Biblical "literalists" in the past I realise that they think their whole world rests on their belief that their personal interpretation of the bible is correct and that therefore they are unlikely to be swayed by cogent argument and facts.

Is the earth not a lump now
,


Not of molten rock whichit would be if Baumgardner's ideas were true.

As I have pointed out in previous links even Baumgardner admits his ideas will not work without a miracle to take away the excess heat.

Cut out the pseudo-science and just invoke a miracle at stage one it is more intellectually honest.

mind you a spherical "dirt lump"?

It is not a lump of dirt.

One part of a theory of flood geology is that there was a 40,000-mile volcano that occurred at the fault lines. That would have been hot ....... oooooh.

It is also completely without evidence to explain away the amounts of excess heat that Baumgardner's ideas produce, but don't let that put you off. As I said, these ad hoc explanations to correct flaws in your basic premis just invite ridicule.

There are mid ocean ridges today that drive plate tectonics, they run down the middle of the Atlantic ocean and up the side of the Pacific Ocean, They run from the Middle east, around India. They obviously do dissipate heat, but obviously not enough to overcome the friction heat procuced by Baumgardner's "hypothesis".

How much more effective would it be to simply invoke a miracle rather than butchering science to try and shore up the fairy tale that is genesis.

It seems to me there is a bit of paranoia when the name John Baumgardner is mentioned amongst you and your "colleagues".

I'd say his name provokes laughter from the atheist scientists and embarassment from those who are Christian.

He himself has admitted that his ideas are completely useless unless god steps in evey step of the way to miraculously make things happen -generating the kinetic energy to start the process, and to then dissipate the heat created.

As I have said - what is the point in invoking natural processes and then studding them with miracles. Just invoke a miracle.

Some Christians seem overawed by the power of science and wish desperately that it could be harnessed to bolster their claims.

Sadly for them it can't and Baumgardner is a perfect example of this, so thanks for bringing it up, because it really does point out what a useless argument creationism is.

I remember reading an active thread on this forum one day when one of your sympathizers came on saying Dr. Baumgardner was debating on another web site and it was like this "scout" was in a panic to rally a regiment to oppose him.[/

I imagine it was more like everyone rushed over to have a good laugh at the poor old dear. He is a bit of a laughing stock in Earth Science circles.
 
Upvote 0

FishFace

Senior Veteran
Jan 12, 2007
4,535
169
37
✟28,130.00
Faith
Atheist

Here's what the discussion seems to be like.

You: The flood happened.
Me: There is this problem.
You: <Unsupported natural explanation>
Me: That's unsupported, besides, <other problem.>
You: <Unsupported natural explanation to other problem>
Me: That's unsupported too, by the evidence and by the Bible. And what happened to the first problem? Plus [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]ird problem.>
You: It doesn't matter what the Bible says, I can make up anything I like. As for the third problem, it was divine intervention.

This is obviously a caricature, but in the end it's pretty much accurate. Saying that the mountains were lower previously is basically just making stuff up - you've no good reason to believe that.
You are "pulling out the supernatural at the end" because for every problem you can answer with the natural, you do. But when there's something you can't answer in any sensible way, you just say, "Oh - God must have performed a miracle" or something similar. Again, you've no good reason to believe that, and this procedure is tacit admission that those natural "explanations" were preferable to the supernatural one.


No. An ad hoc procedure can be beneficial, but an ad hoc argument rarely is. An ad hoc argument goes something like this:

Me: Angelina Jolie loves me.
You: Why have I never seen you together?
Me: (ad hoc) it's a secret relationship!
You: Why is she still seen with her husband?
Me: (ad hoc) that's an unsatisfactory marriage which she hopes to get out of. She just hasn't told anyone yet.
You: Where are these restraining orders from her against you?
Me: (ad hoc) she's playing hard to get!

The only blindfold around here is that you insist the Bible is true, and that I insist Angelina loves me. These are the claims that are held without respect for any other facts.
We then formulate other, completely unsupported claims, in order to fend off perfectly rational complaints about our foundational claims. Do you see why this is a poor argumentation technique?

Now, how do you want to proceed? Do you want to address all the problems you've not dealt with yet? Do you want me to find more? (I would like to know how Noah's Ark stayed afloat when a boat that large built entirely out of wood flexes so much that it would need constant pumping) When are you going to tell us how life "diversified" after the flood, and how on earth the earth rearranged itself without cooking us from your just as cooked-up claim of a plain-earth.
Or do you want to get to the root of it and tell us why we should believe the Bible is historical in the first place?

The Bible says that if one rejects Christ and the Bible it is sin. By taking an anti-biblical worldview you are jeopardizing your future.

For shame. I guess the vast majority of the world is in utmost jeopardy. For some reason though, I doubt you'd really be convinced if I told you that you were going to hell for not believing the Qu'Ran.
 
Upvote 0

Wiccan_Child

Contributor
Mar 21, 2005
19,419
673
Bristol, UK
✟46,731.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
You can't evidence your hypothesis using your hypothesis. Scientists didn't respond to the claims of the irrefutable complexity of the flagellum by saying, "Oh, we know it evolved somehow, because otherwise it wouldn't be there".

You ignore the possibility, for instance, that the 'insect problem' is a sucessful refutation of your idea.

Now, as to the 'floating debris' idea. This is from TalkOrigins:
  1. Many insects could not survive for a year on vegetation mats. Most insects are specialized at least somewhat for their food or environment. Some of the requirements of various insects include
    • living vegetation or flowers to feed on
    • dry wood
    • soil
    • dung
    • animal corpses
    • shallow streams
    In particular, a global flood would have caused the extinction of most aphids, drywood termites, dung beetles, burying beetles, black flies, mayflies, ground beetles, and many more, unless special care were taken to ensure their survival.
  2. A global flood would cause the extinction of millions of species of insects and other invertebrates simply as a result of the reduced quantity of habitat. Insect species are going extinct today simply from the cutting down of sections of forests. A global flood would be many orders of magnitude more devastating. Given the fact that insects are alive today, if there was a flood, Noah must have gathered them and saved them with the rest of the animals.
  3. The Bible says that Noah took "every creeping thing on the ground" and that these were distinct from animals (Gen. 6:20, 7:8,14). It further says that all life that was not aboard the ark was killed, including creeping and swarming things (Gen. 7:21-23). There is not the slightest bit of biblical support for anything living on vegetation mats and a great deal of biblical contradiction of the idea. Obviously, the only reason to put insects on mats is so the ark apologists do not have to worry about them.
If that's too long for you to read:
  1. Insects couldn't have survived for a year on vegitation mats.
  2. Even if they had, they wouldn't have survived the subsequent habitat lost.
  3. Even if they could, there is no Biblical support for the idea, but plenty against it.
So, no. Good try though.

The Bible has reached a level of credibility with me that it is a reliable textbook for everything, including science.
What, so you believe in a firmament in the skys (complete with windows), four-legged grasshoppers, avian bats, satyrs, unicorns, and mountain-forming floods?
Moreover, which Bible do you believe, and why?
 
Reactions: FishFace
Upvote 0