My Gospel by Paul

Rose_bud said:

Let's me try this differently, in case I wasn't clear. Do you think Paul was talking about a literal fall or metaphorical fall ? And if literal why do you think so? If a metaphorical fall, why do you think so?

Click to expand...

Guojing said:

Please define what exactly you have in mind on literal fall vs metaphorical fall.

I still don't get why you are so hard up about this distinction when I already explained to you so many times what I had in mind when it comes to what I meant by the fall of Israel.

Click to expand...

Rose_bud said:

Please see your post #617. You did not explain which one is your view.

Click to expand...

As I said, They are no longer God's favored nation after Acts 7. Every Jewish unbeliever is now considered uncircumcised in God's eyes.

I leave it to you to decide whether which of the 2 terms applies.

Click to expand...

Guojing said:

I already gave you this



Like I said, I don't understand your obsession of these 2 terms. I already gave you the freedom to decide which term I meant.

If your true objective in doing so, is to avoid addressing my point above, just say so, and we can move on.

Click to expand...

Rose_bud said:

You indicated you are making a claim, but failing to clarify the terms used to interpret your claims. It's your responsibility to explain your own claims, not mine. By refusing to do so, you're essentially expecting me to interpret your ambiguous statements.
If you can't articulate your own beliefs, it's difficult to continue conversing. I'm looking for a meaningful exchange, not a one-sided guessing game.

Click to expand...

Guojing said:

I have patiently explained my claim, more than once, to you.

You avoided addressing my explanation and instead prefer to engage in a silly game of metaphor vs literal.

Click to expand...

Rose_bud said:

Please respect my position on this dialogue with you.

upfront disclaimer
If this discussion is going to digress into a back and forth with no meaningful engagement. I politely excuse myself.

Click to expand...

Rose_bud said:

The mystery Paul spoke of in Romans 11:11 is not a new revelation as some has indicated it has always been veiled prophecy (both near an far)

Paul says in Romans 11:11.

Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression/false step, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.

Paul as a schooled Pharisee would have known the song by Moses in Deuteronomy 32:21, Romans 10:20

Deuteronomy 32:21
They made me jealous by what is no god and angered me with their worthless idols. I will make them envious by those who are not a people; I will make them angry by a nation that has no understanding.

Paul is applying this prophecy to the current situation, where salvation has come to the Gentiles, making Israel envious, resulting in the inclusion of the Gentiles in Gods plan of salvation. He starts this explanation in the previous chapters of Romans and builds on it.

Veiled or hidden does not mean it is not there, rather to use an analogy of a veil. A bride is still there, under the veil, she is concealed until the veil is lifted. Just as the veil is used hide the face of the bride, God has "hidden" His plan for humanity as they are ready to receive it. He unveils it, as He wills. This doesn't mean God deliberately hid the truth, but rather, He chose to reveal it in a way that aligns with His sovereign plan, that is both merciful and just. It was not hidden by God, but in God. Revealed in the Person of Christ.

Because of the hardness of the hearts, his people could not comprehend that God's purposes were greater than their immediate situations, even if the prophets all hinted at it.

In a similiar way they could not see God in the person of Jesus because of that same hardness and spiritual blindness. They could not perceive the Promised Seed. They could not comprehend the prophesied King.

What is the transgression/the false step that they took? Unbelief, they did not believe in the Messiah that stood in their midst.

Romans 16:25-27
Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith— to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.

It was always the same good news. Paul did not bring a separate message of eternal salvation to Gentiles.

Click to expand...