Must we endure in the faith by continuously believing and repenting?

St_Worm2 · Feb 19, 2019

Oldmantook said:
...one must continue to believe and obey in order to have eternal life instead of a one-time moment of belief/obedience.

"Christians" who can only lay claim to a "one-time moment of belief/obedience" never had such a moment (no matter what they claim/believe)

--David

John 6:37-40 (excerpt)
ALL that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and ... of ALL that He has given Me, I LOSE NOTHING, but raise it up on the last day.

.

timothyu · Feb 19, 2019

redleghunter said:
Another what exactly?

Another lesser gospel that ignores Jesus' Gospel of the Kingdom which declares the will of man backwards thus the world we have built as backwards also, both to the will of God. Focusing on the Messenger but not His message, does not serve God.

redleghunter · Feb 19, 2019

timothyu said:
Another lesser gospel that ignores Jesus' Gospel of the Kingdom which declares the will of man backwards thus the world we have built as backwards also, both to the will of God. Focusing on the Messenger but not His message, does not serve God.

That was incomprehensible. Perhaps you could start a thread and lay out your thesis.

I’m thinking there’s more to what you are saying or want to say. But that does not help us out comprehending what you are really thinking.

timothyu · Feb 20, 2019

redleghunter said:
But that does not help us out comprehending what you are really thinking.

That happens when Jesus' Gospel of the Kingdom is not the focus of Christianity.

redleghunter · Feb 20, 2019

timothyu said:
That happens when Jesus' Gospel of the Kingdom is not the focus of Christianity.

Sir it would be great to see a thread started by you to explain your views.

I’ve dedicated quite some time harmonizing the good news of the Kingdom and the good news of God’s Grace.

Dave L · Feb 20, 2019

Flesh faith always prefers to doubt. So flesh faith type believers must always force themselves to continue on. But true believers having Holy Spirit faith want nothing more than to believe and experience the other fruits of the Spirit. For me, it is extremely hard to doubt, and natural to believe in Christ by grace.

FreeGrace2 · Feb 20, 2019

BCsenior said:
Continual belief/faith is necessary
for continual salvation/eternal life
The original Greek manuscripts reveal the verb tenses:
“… whoever believes [present tense: continues to believe] in Him may have [present tense: may continue to have] eternal life. For God so loved the world, that
He gave His only Son, that whoever believes
[present tense: continues to believe] in Him should
not perish but have [present tense: continue to have]
eternal life.” (John 3:15-16)
Glory be! ... Is it possible that even the venerable
John 3:16 stands against eternal security!

Not at all. The error is in claiming that the present tense means to "continue in the action". There is no justification in that idea.

The Greek present tense means action that is currenty happening.

For example, believing NOW, or believing AT THIS TIME. It says nothing about results of the action being dependent upon continuing the action, as you have claimed.

Here's some help in understanding the Greek tenses:
Greek Verb Tenses (Intermediate Discussion)

There are many verses that use the aorist tense, basically equivalent to our past tense for believe as well. What do you do with those verses?

Paul's answer to the jailer who asked what he MUST DO to be saved was to "believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved". Dr Luke used the aorist tense. Paul used the aorist tense in Rom 10:10.

Clarity about eternal security is found in the words of Jesus in John 10:28, where He said, "I give them (His sheep, meaning believers) eternal life, and they shall never perish".

So, when does Jesus give the free gift of eternal life? WHEN a person believes, for Jesus also noted in John 5:24 and 6:47 that whoever believes HAS (that means present possession of) eternal life.

The apostle John re-itereated the same principle here:
1 John 5:13 - I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

If that isn't clear enough, consider v.11 - And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

So, there is no question that eternal life is given when one believes in Christ, and the result of receiving eternal life (at the moment of saving faith) that person shall never perish.

BACs must endure in the faith to receive eternal life
● Colossians 1:22-23
“He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight —
IF indeed you continue in the faith … and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel”
● 1 Corinthians 15:1-2
“It is this Good News (the gospel) that saves you,
IF you continue to believe the message I told you”
● Hebrews 2:3
“So what makes us think we can escape
(from disobedience),
IF we ignore this great salvation”
● 2 Timothy 2:12
“IF we endure, we shall also reign with Him.”
● Hebrews 3:12-14 “Make sure that …
none of you will be deceived by sin and hardened against God.
For IF we are faithful to the end, we will share in all that belongs to Christ.”
● Revelation 2:10
“But IF you remain faithful even when facing death, I will give you the crown of (eternal) life”
Because of the above verses, this also refer to salvation:
● Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, Mark 13:13
“But the one who endures to the end
(of his/her life) will be saved.”

Did you not notice that NONE of these conditional verses says anything about keeping salvation, or losing salvation.

Foxfyre · Feb 20, 2019

BCsenior said:
Continual belief/faith is necessary
for continual salvation/eternal life
The original Greek manuscripts reveal the verb tenses:
“… whoever believes [present tense: continues to believe] in Him may have [present tense: may continue to have] eternal life. For God so loved the world, that
He gave His only Son, that whoever believes
[present tense: continues to believe] in Him should
not perish but have [present tense: continue to have]
eternal life.” (John 3:15-16)
Glory be! ... Is it possible that even the venerable
John 3:16 stands against eternal security!

BACs must endure in the faith to receive eternal life
● Colossians 1:22-23
“He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight —
IF indeed you continue in the faith … and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel”
● 1 Corinthians 15:1-2
“It is this Good News (the gospel) that saves you,
IF you continue to believe the message I told you”
● Hebrews 2:3
“So what makes us think we can escape
(from disobedience),
IF we ignore this great salvation”
● 2 Timothy 2:12
“IF we endure, we shall also reign with Him.”
● Hebrews 3:12-14 “Make sure that …
none of you will be deceived by sin and hardened against God.
For IF we are faithful to the end, we will share in all that belongs to Christ.”
● Revelation 2:10
“But IF you remain faithful even when facing death, I will give you the crown of (eternal) life”
Because of the above verses, this also refer to salvation:
● Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, Mark 13:13
“But the one who endures to the end
(of his/her life) will be saved.”

From The Holman Christian Standard Bible
“Repent (metanoeo) and believe (pisteou) may be understood as opposite sides of the same coin. Repent means to turn from one’s allegiance to sin and unbelief, whereas believe means to place one’s trust in Christ. Thus, when one is mentioned the other is implied. …
John never used the words repent, repentance, or faith to describe the way people are saved. Instead, he used believe since this term included all of these ideas.”

Just what does this single word “believe” really mean?
Dr. Lester Sumrall (the world-famous evangelist)
decided he really needed to research this … and
his conclusion was that it must include obedience!

True saving belief =
enduring deep faith, trust, repentance, obedience

BACs must repent of their sins
to receive eternal life
● “But if we confess (repent) our sins to him,
he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness (unrighteousness).” (1 John 1:9)
● “My dear children, I am writing this to you
so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin,
we have an advocate who pleads our case
before the Father. He is Jesus Christ,
the one who is truly righteous.” (1 John 2:1)
Anyone like to see a whole page of NT verses about this?

Quiz questions -- Romans 6 insists we have choices
Shall I be a slave of sin which leads to
eternal death?
Shall I be a slave of obedience which leads to
righteousness?
Shall I be a slave of righteousness which leads to
holiness?

Quiz answers
1 page of NT verses is available on:
obedience is necessary for salvation.
1 page of NT verses is available on:
righteousness is necessary for salvation.

In my opinion, repentance is very different from confession and asking forgiveness which I believe all Christians do and we should do. But one does not continually repent because in the Biblical sense, to repent is to turn away from wrong doing, to turn away from evil. I'm not saying that we can never do that more than once. I break a lot of New Year's resolutions. But once we have truly repented, we no longer commit that sin.

Confess we must do for the good of our souls. Repent we must do for the good of ourselves, our family, humankind, the world, and in order to love God. That comes easier for some than others at different times. But we don't have to spend 24/7 beating ourselves up either. If we despair because we are imperfect in our love and obedience to God, we have to accept His grace and allow Him to work on us and otherwise live our lives as joyfully and with as much positive energy as possible. To do so glorifies Him.

Meanwhile we pray without ceasing which I see as demonstrated by Tevya in "Fiddler on the Roof" who went about his work and daily routine conscious of God and having conversations with God expressing his confidence, his love, his fears, his worries, his frustrations, and his joys. I think that is probably what the scripture intended.

And yes righteousness is necessary for salvation, but I think none of us can make ourselves righteous. That comes through grace, the gift of a loving God. And I thank Him that He loves us that much.

Maria Billingsley · Feb 20, 2019

BCsenior said:
Continual belief/faith is necessary
for continual salvation/eternal life
The original Greek manuscripts reveal the verb tenses:
“… whoever believes [present tense: continues to believe] in Him may have [present tense: may continue to have] eternal life. For God so loved the world, that
He gave His only Son, that whoever believes
[present tense: continues to believe] in Him should
not perish but have [present tense: continue to have]
eternal life.” (John 3:15-16)
Glory be! ... Is it possible that even the venerable
John 3:16 stands against eternal security!

BACs must endure in the faith to receive eternal life
● Colossians 1:22-23
“He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight —
IF indeed you continue in the faith … and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel”
● 1 Corinthians 15:1-2
“It is this Good News (the gospel) that saves you,
IF you continue to believe the message I told you”
● Hebrews 2:3
“So what makes us think we can escape
(from disobedience),
IF we ignore this great salvation”
● 2 Timothy 2:12
“IF we endure, we shall also reign with Him.”
● Hebrews 3:12-14 “Make sure that …
none of you will be deceived by sin and hardened against God.
For IF we are faithful to the end, we will share in all that belongs to Christ.”
● Revelation 2:10
“But IF you remain faithful even when facing death, I will give you the crown of (eternal) life”
Because of the above verses, this also refer to salvation:
● Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, Mark 13:13
“But the one who endures to the end
(of his/her life) will be saved.”

From The Holman Christian Standard Bible
“Repent (metanoeo) and believe (pisteou) may be understood as opposite sides of the same coin. Repent means to turn from one’s allegiance to sin and unbelief, whereas believe means to place one’s trust in Christ. Thus, when one is mentioned the other is implied. …
John never used the words repent, repentance, or faith to describe the way people are saved. Instead, he used believe since this term included all of these ideas.”

Just what does this single word “believe” really mean?
Dr. Lester Sumrall (the world-famous evangelist)
decided he really needed to research this … and
his conclusion was that it must include obedience!

True saving belief =
enduring deep faith, trust, repentance, obedience

BACs must repent of their sins
to receive eternal life
● “But if we confess (repent) our sins to him,
he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness (unrighteousness).” (1 John 1:9)
● “My dear children, I am writing this to you
so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin,
we have an advocate who pleads our case
before the Father. He is Jesus Christ,
the one who is truly righteous.” (1 John 2:1)
Anyone like to see a whole page of NT verses about this?

Quiz questions -- Romans 6 insists we have choices
Shall I be a slave of sin which leads to
eternal death?
Shall I be a slave of obedience which leads to
righteousness?
Shall I be a slave of righteousness which leads to
holiness?

Quiz answers
1 page of NT verses is available on:
obedience is necessary for salvation.
1 page of NT verses is available on:
righteousness is necessary for salvation.

At some point repentance has to mean something and come into fruition in ones life. After all ,repentance means "changing ones mind", "turn the other way" etc. If a person is continually in a state of trying to "change their mind" on a particular sin, then it is probably not a genuine repentance. For example, today we have a high instance of fornication in the Body of Christ. Many Christians feel "guilty" about it even though when they do the act they ask for forgiveness . This is not true repentance. Anyhow, I know this because I was once there.
Blessings

PS: Repentance is not possible on our own, we need the Holy Spirit to give us the strength and will to conquer.

BCsenior · Feb 20, 2019

St_Worm2 said:
So again, those spoken of in Hebrews 10:26-27, were never true Christians (BAC's), even if they claimed and believed themselves to be ... their kind of "faith" does not result in them becoming Christians.

David, you have given a most useful explanation of
true believers versus phony pretenders!
But IMO, you are claiming that anyone who backslides
cannot possibly be born-again!
Even more drastic, do you really believe that anyone who
backslides has not been baptized with the Holy Spirit
(with the evidence of speaking in tongues) ... as was
most everyone (or all?) in the NT churches?

BCsenior · Feb 20, 2019

Jonaitis said:
Yikes, this thread sounds like faith is
a work we must continually stir and summon, instead of it being
a free gift of God's grace
working in us continually.

Sorry, this HUGE problem in today's churches
is called "HYPER GRACE" by many!

The free gift of God's grace (described in Eph 2:8-9)
is NOT guaranteed to last throughout one's life!

A very simple proof is ...
"You have become estranged from Christ,
you who attempt to be justified by law;
you have fallen from grace." (Galatians 5:4)

This can apply to anyone for any reason!
Pease don't get all freaked out about this
... seals can be broken, etc., correct?

FreeGrace2 · Feb 20, 2019

BCsenior said:
Sorry, this is a HUGE problem in today's churches!
The free gift of God's grace (described in Eph 2:8-9)
is NOT guaranteed to last throughout one's life!

Yes, the gift of eternal life DOES result in never perishing. John 10:28

And the gift in Eph 2:8 is salvation, not grace. Grace is offered to everyone. Titus 2:11

A very simple proof is ...
"You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." (Galatians 5:4)
So, please don't get all freaked out about this ...

No reason to get all freaked out. The verse indicates that those who have returned to the law for justification have broken fellowship with Christ, and are not in the sphere of grace. They ARE under God's wrath, which is painful discipline (Heb 12:11).

seals can be broken, etc., correct?

Sure. Seals made by man. But there are no verses about the Holy Spirit being "broken". That is absurd.

And there are no verses about the Holy Spirit being removed from any NT believer.

Further, in the verses about the sealing with the Holy Spirit, we find the word "guarantee". So, what is guaranteed?

Eph 1:13,14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

2 Cor 1:22 - set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

2 Cor 5:5 - Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Even grieving the Holy Spirit doesn't break the seal.

BCsenior · Feb 20, 2019

Foxfyre said:
And yes righteousness is necessary for salvation, but I think none of us can make ourselves righteous. That comes through grace, the gift of a loving God.

Haven't you ever been blessed (lol) by reading my full page of NT verses, which are trying to teach us that
those who practice righteousness are the ones
who are righteous in God's eyes!

For me, it is obvious ... BACs who are involved in
habitual (unrepentant) sin are NOT righteous
(not living righteously) in God's eyes!

So, here we are again: seeing that what was given to us
when we were born-again MUST be continued on by us
thru our co-operation with the most precious Holy Spirit,
as He tries to fully sanctify us ... to make us holy.
"holiness, without which no one will see the Lord."
(Hebrews 12:14)

Please refer to my signature below
in glorious black, red, and blue (which
has been born-again from NKJV to NLT).
Truly, this beats up some people so much
that they are black and blue as a result
(and just maybe red-faced as well) ...

Invalidusername · Feb 20, 2019

I once believed that BACs did not sin after I got saved because of my new nature but I found out quickly that I was wrong. If you continue in willful sin, you are risking spiritual death and the unpardonable sin.

However BCSenior is wrong about Hebrews 10:26 talking about one sin. It clearly says "go on willfully sinning" as in a pattern and a lifestyle. Eventually God will stop all calls to repentance and give you over to your sin.

BCsenior · Feb 20, 2019

Foxfyre said:
In my opinion, repentance is very different from confession and asking forgiveness which I believe all Christians do and we should do.

Yes, we all agree that ...
confession is only the foist half of repentance!

BCsenior · Feb 20, 2019

Maria Billingsley said:
PS: Repentance is not possible on our own, we need the Holy Spirit to give us the strength and will to conquer.

I agree with your whole post ... except the above.
IMO, we have a God-given free will that God
expects us to utilize in choosing right from wrong
... our God-given conscience can be utilized as well.

This is all tied in with our determination to be obedient.
Jesus continually said (paraphrasing) ...
"Those who love Me are da ones
who obey My commandments."
And who gets to heaven who does not love Jesus?

BCsenior · Feb 20, 2019

Invalidusername said:
BCSenior is wrong about Hebrews 10:26 talking about one sin. It clearly says "go on willfully sinning" as in a pattern and a lifestyle. Eventually God will stop all calls to repentance and give you over to your sin.

Methunks I was referring to ...
Hebrews 10:26-27 (NKJV)
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.

Again, our Bibles are all messed up ...
the Greek most probably does indeed
reveal a continuing present tense!

This is another proof that our shepherds
are responsible for teaching their sheep!

And this is indeed why God is warning
His prophets and watchmen with such as:
"shepherds leading multitudes to hell".
And more than one person has been
given a personally-guided tour of hell
... and has seen many pastors in hell.

Okay, you can get up off the floor now!

Invalidusername · Feb 20, 2019

BCsenior said:
Methunks I was referring to ...
Hebrews 10:26-27 (NKJV)
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.

Again, our Bibles are all messed up ...
the Greek most probably does indeed
reveal a continuing present tense.

This is another proof that our shepherds
are responsible for teaching their sheep!

And this is indeed why God is warning
His prophets and watchmen with such as:
"shepherds leading multitudes to hell".
And more than one person has been
given a personally-guided tour of hell ...
and has seen many pastors in hell.

Okay, you can get up off the floor now!

There are many pastors and professing believers going to hell. I believe that it is possible for a genuine believer to apostatize and go to hell too. Too many parables that Jesus has said go along with this. I believe that it is not just a rejection of Christ that is apostasy but also willfully sinning until the Holy Spirit stops convicting said individual.

However the reason we know that Hebrews 10:26 is NOT talking about a single willful sin is because this would damn even the most pious born again Christian to hell. Plus we would have to define what a willful sin is or is not in order understand which sins will or will not send us to hell if we commit after we believe. Is it any willful sin such as gluttony(eating all you can eat at a buffet) or losing your temper or is it only extreme gross serious sins such as sexual immorality? So we now have to figure out which singular willful sin is serious enough to damn us with no hope of redemption.

PLUS if you read the 7 churches in Revelations, God is calling Christians to repent of gross sins such as sexual immorality.

Revelations 2

20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

So reading this passage it is clear that servants of God can fall into immorality(eg. continuous willful sins) and God will give them a time to repent. Then He will send tribulations down their ways and I assume this is in order to make them repent. If they still do not repent during the tribulations then they run the risk of the sin referenced in Hebrews 10:26.

This is my understanding of it.

timothyu · Feb 20, 2019

BCsenior said:
IMO, we have a God-given free will that God
expects us to utilize in choosing right from wrong
... our God-given conscience can be utilized as well.

Otherwise what would be the purpose of giving us the Kingdom as an alternative and an alternate example to the self serving ways of mankind, an alternative to make a choice over.

timothyu · Feb 20, 2019

Invalidusername said:
If you continue in willful sin, you are risking spiritual death and the unpardonable sin.

I have a lord lord friend who continually walks in the steps of the self serving thus opposing God's will, yet seems to think because she believes Jesus was the Son of God, she can do as she pleases now because all will be forgiven.

Must we endure in the faith by continuously believing and repenting?

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