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Multiverses are pseudo science, secularist, ideology

FrumiousBandersnatch

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The Wiki article has plenty of links to papers and news articles, including the Integrated Information Theory website. Scott Aaronson's blog article, 'Why I am not an Integrated Information Theorist' is an interesting critique.

I think the difficulty with consciousness studies is the irreconcilable subjective-objective divide. Subjective experience (Nagel's 'what it is like', and the accompanying qualia) is inaccessible to all but the experiencer and can only be communicated indirectly through metaphor and appeal to shared objective experience (in the hope that another human having the same objective experience will have a roughly similar subjective experience). We can never know how similar different individual's subjective experiences are, but we do know that given the same objective experience they can be very different, e.g. the same roller-coaster experience will give different people very different subjective experiences.

The inaccessibility of subjective experience means that a scientific approach can only deal with correlates of consciousness, so may be prone to the error I think IIT makes, of suggesting that, having detected some correlate (e.g. integrated information), any system that shows that feature must, ipso facto, be conscious. This is like finding that excellent fitness and good reflexes are highly correlated with being a good footballer, and suggesting that therefore anyone with excellent fitness and good reflexes must be a good footballer. "To a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail"
 
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partinobodycular

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Are you guys intentionally trying to make me feel dumb?

How many in this thread are scientists? Or have a high level of university in the subject of science ?
I must agree. And I wonder if it actually becomes counterproductive at some point...for some people. Not that it's not impressive, and not that I want to dissuade it, but at what point do people simply zone it out and go with the ever popular "I reject your reality and substitute my own"? Does this happen with a great many things? Where once I can no longer follow your argument I may simply reject it out of hand, and the entire framework upon which it's based. When overwhelmed, do people simply fall back on the experiences and arguments with which they can most easily relate? And thus the harder we try to convince people via the intricacy of our arguments the less effective they become?

And perhaps I should stop there, lest this post become a case in point. (More likely it suffers from the exact opposite problem...being too convoluted)
 
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durangodawood

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People should have the humility to accept that not every aspect of reality can be expected to conform to their human-scale conditioned "common sense".
 
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Confused-by-christianity

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I must agree. ..
Thanks for your reply.

Just to be clear - I really wanted to know who is a specialist in the subject they are speaking about.

I didn't get an answer though. I didn't want to make anyone look stupid or argue about anything
 
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Bradskii

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I think some of the guys here really know what they're talking about. And I think that's a good thing. On both sides of any argument. Someone recently (in another thread) answered a question about giving 'glory to God' with quite a detailed post about reading the bible in Hebrew and how that changed the meaning of some terms. So I learnt something.

I get asked now and then why I post on Christian forums. And the general response is that I like a good argument. There's nothing better than to prop a bar with a couple of friends and discuss sport, politics...whatever. But doing it online, it gives you the opportunity to check out someone's claim - and even check out your own. So if someone posts some information that's above my pay grade then I get to spend a couple of hours educating myself on the matter. In some cases, I end up slightly more knowledgeable. And in others...well, a foray into the maths regarding a particular theory of consciousness earlier this evening left me under no illusion that it would be forever beyond me. But at least now I know what I don't know.
 
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Vap841

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True, but I think all of these factors are a matter of humility being baked into the cake of reality. That’s a good list of complaints about panpsychism, but maybe that might be the point of panpsychism, that reality is saying to us “Slow your roll people you can’t measure & weigh yourselves to exhaustive knowledge about reality, sorry.” At least that is so far the interpretation I was getting from it, I remember having this weird feeling of how it was giving me the answer but not giving me the answer at the same time lol.
 
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Bradskii

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Thanks for your reply.

Just to be clear - I really wanted to know who is a specialist in the subject they are speaking about.

I didn't get an answer though. I didn't want to make anyone look stupid or argue about anything

Interested amateur here splashing around in the shallows. But I think there are some here who are professionals in relevant areas of some scientific discussions.
 
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Confused-by-christianity

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Interested amateur here splashing around in the shallows. But I think there are some here who are professionals in relevant areas of some scientific discussions.
Me too - I'd love to be a specialist in a cool subject (all of them actually).

I've decided to teach myself. I've divided up everything into 2 categories:
1) Maths
2) People

MATHS
I hope to get competent at this then progress into sciences and mechanics etc etc (Things).
(So far I'm 3rd Grade level maths haha)

PEOPLE
Starting with Cambridge World Prehistory - I'll follow the progress of people from here. I hope to learn complete history of philosophy, literature, art etc etc.
(So far I'm at the introduction of the book haha)
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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I'm not sure what you're saying here. It seems to me better to say, "We don't know" than to propose such non-explanations that tell us nothing and would seem to lead nowhere.

Panpsychism seems like the same kind of thinking behind the 'life force' or 'animating principle' that distinguished living from non-living up until sometime in the 19th-20th century - abandoned when we discovered the actual principles of how life works.
 
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Vap841

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I'm not sure what you're saying here. It seems to me better to say, "We don't know" than to propose such non-explanations that tell us nothing and would seem to lead nowhere.
I was just saying that it was giving me the sense that the answer was actually “We can’t know” (some things), that for some things the search leads to an obscurity that you can’t get a solid grip on.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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You have a good point; it's often difficult to know at what level to pitch an explanation, and how to explain some things to someone that doesn't have any scientific background. One has to hope that people will be confident enough to say they don't understand and/or to ask for clarification.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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I was just saying that it was giving me the sense that the answer was actually “We can’t know” (some things), that for some things the search leads to an obscurity that you can’t get a solid grip on.
That may be true, but we won't know unless we try. Clearly, there will be some things that come down to fundamental brute fact, such as finding out what everything is made of; once you get to the fundamental 'stuff' it makes no sense to ask what it's made of - it's what everything else is made of. We're not used to dealing with ideas like this, and they're difficult to get your head around.

Children seem to innately know this - that's why they keep asking, "Why?", until given something to keep them quiet
 
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