[moved from C&E] Religions call people Atheists.

CatholicForSure said:

A- is part of the English language, meaning "Not".

Things can be symetrical or asymetrical; typical or atypical

Theism is a belief in god or gods. Monotheism is belief in One God. Atheism is no belief in God.

It has nothing to do with "religions". It has to do with understanding the English language

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AV1611VET said:

I disagree -- it's the suffix that counts as well; not just the prefix

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Naraoia said:

The suffix is already part of theism, which means "belief in god(s)".

Stick a negative prefix on it, and you get a-theism, "no belief in god(s)".

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Yes. Thank yu.

Tomatoman said:

I don't believe in Father Christmas. I believe in no Father Christmas.

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Give me a one-word definition for this though.

Atheism is a one-word definition for what it's adherents believe, and this definition is being challenged.

AV1611VET said:

Atheism is a one-word definition for what it's adherents believe, and this definition is being challenged.

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Not by anyone of consequence.

Naraoia said:

Were any of these kids even able to talk about their stance on religion?

(Besides, what were their exact circumstances? I somehow doubt that a human infant left out in the middle of nowhere would stand a massive chance of growing up)

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Feral child - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

also

http://listverse.com/2008/03/07/10-modern-cases-of-feral-children/

AV1611VET said:

I disagree -- it's the suffix that counts as well; not just the prefix.

Just like asymmetrical means 'no symmetry', atheism means the belief that there is no God.

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actually its

atheism which means non theism. The ism is simply because theism is an ism but the a actually precludes that atheism is NOT an ism.

Your smarter then this. yet you continue to play the part of the fool

badtim said:

they're also no good at covering their tracks, defending their beliefs on the stand, or telling consistent truth, as clearly shown in Kitzmiller.

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Have you seen the NOVA documentary on that? It's brilliant

Wiccan_Child said:

Have you seen the NOVA documentary on that? It's brilliant

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nope, but i have read the entirety of the decision, along with a bunch of the supporting materials. it's an amazingly good read, and i have to give it to judge jones, he's got a sharp mind.

MoonLancer said:

Feral child - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

also

10 Modern Cases of Feral Children

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Thanks! It's amazing how many of these cases are claimed to be hoaxes on Wikipedia. It seems this is something people like spinning stories about... (which is hardly surprising, now that I think about it)

So, basically, the typical case can't even learn to speak properly. Hard to know anything about their religious leanings that way

Naraoia said:

Thanks! It's amazing how many of these cases are claimed to be hoaxes on Wikipedia. It seems this is something people like spinning stories about... (which is hardly surprising, now that I think about it)

So, basically, the typical case can't even learn to speak properly. Hard to know anything about their religious leanings that way

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its pretty amazing. Humans have a small important window of social development. If this window is not taken advantage of they grow up to be retarded for the most part and never really are able to enter society.

we can learn outside of that window but only within the structure that has been established (in nearly all cases). A great deal of what we consider human is solidified in that time. If that window is missed its quite tragic as real cases have shown.

Delphiki said:

"Belief in no God" is actively believing there isn't a God. In other words, worshiping, praying, or some kind of ritualistic activity or thought in regards to there being no god(s).

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You mean like materialism?

Doveaman said:

You mean like materialism?

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Whatever helps you sleep at night. Just be sure to read that entire post. It's not that long, I promise.

wensdee said:

A child will not become religious unless it is pointed at religion because a child would not know what religion was or what it was for.

Why would anyone seek out religion unless they felt a need for companionship, comfort or forgiveness? all of which can be got from friends, have no friends? then they need to go find a religion.

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I think wensdee is seriously mis-construing the meanings of Religion and Theism here. To be Religious is not synonymous with being Theist. One can be Religious without being Theist and vise-versa.

Religion is just a specific set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons. This is something developed over time and is taught and passed on through Generations.

Theism (as defined by Human understanding) is belief in the idea of God or gods. It is also meaningless in practical Philosophy.

But Beliefs (whether Theistic or not) is the inevitable outcome resulted from the Default state of a Human Child's mind; Ignorance. Without a Guiding influence (even such as an Atheistic one), their natural inclination to try to understand their world without foreknowledge will Lend them to develop Beliefs (often faulty ones) about the world. Beliefs over time (Often) leads to Theism which inevitably leads to Religion.

So, the Default State of a new-born is neither Theist nor Atheist. It is also my Chosen State.

Also, is Wensdee another one of consol/Automan's Names? Cause, he gets under my skin the same way.

wensdee said:

A child will not become religious unless it is pointed at religion because a child would not know what religion was or what it was for.

Why would anyone seek out religion unless they felt a need for companionship, comfort or forgiveness? all of which can be got from friends, have no friends? then they need to go find a religion.

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AV1611VET said:

I disagree -- it's the suffix that counts as well; not just the prefix.

Just like asymmetrical means 'no symmetry', atheism means the belief that there is no God.

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I'd hate to agree with AV here but he's correct in one regard. There are a number people who call themselves Atheists whose personal belief is that there is no God. These Few are the one's who say "There is No God" while mainstream Atheists say "I don't Believe there is a God." It's Obvious that they do not share the same point of view as Other Atheists and they certainly do not speak for all of them. There is currently no other word to use to define these few beside distinguishing them by "Militant Atheists" and "Agnostic Atheists" though this also has other problems.

For these, the Bible's actually Right to call them Fools cause it's a Ignorant Statement to say that there is no God. I mentioned Automan/consol in last post. He was a Perfect example. He even once claimed that Science proved God didn't exist.

What's wrong with the term atheist? Sounds appropriate to me.

Many years ago.. I had an issue with the American Atheists mission statement.. I emailed them a couple of times and invited them to discuss them with me.. but they declined.

I drew it to their attention.. that their beliefs sounded very much the same as religious teachings…

Below are some of the points I raised with them..


The American Atheists' Mission Statement

"Your petitioners are Atheists, and they define their lifestyle as follows.

"An Atheist loves himself and his fellow man instead of a god. An Atheist accepts that heaven is something for which we should work now -- here on earth -- for all men together to enjoy. An Atheist accepts that he can get no help through prayer, but that he must find in himself the inner conviction and strength to meet life, to grapple with it, to subdue it and to enjoy it. An Atheist accepts that only in a knowledge of himself and a knowledge of his fellow man can he find the understanding that will help to a life of fulfilment."


Ok.. point by point..

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1. An Atheist loves himself and his fellow man instead of a god.


Correspondingly . . the Bible says:


“You must not take vengeance nor have a grudge against the sons of your people; and you must love your fellow as yourself.”

“All things, therefore, that you want men to do to you, you also must likewise do to them; this, in fact, is what the Law and the Prophets mean.” - Leviticus 19:18 + Matthew 7:12

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2. An Atheist accepts that heaven is something for which we should work now -- here on earth -- for all men together to enjoy.


And.. Jesus taught..*


“The Kingdom of heaven is spread upon the surface of the Earth.. yet men do not see it.”

Gospel of Thomas

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3. An Atheist accepts that he can get no help through prayer..


While the Bible says.....

"And as for you, do not pray in behalf of this people, and do not lift up in their behalf an entreating cry or a prayer, for I shall not be listening in the time of their calling out to me in regard to their calamity.” - Jeremiah 11:14

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4. ”...but that an atheist must find in himself the inner conviction and strength to meet life, to grapple with it, to subdue it and to enjoy it.”


However.. the Bible teaches the need for us to have inner conviction also...


Jesus said “Why do you not judge also for yourselves what is righteous?”

“For whenever people of the nations that do not have law do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them and, between their own thoughts, they are being accused or even excused.” - Luke 12:57 + Romans 2:12

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5. An Atheist accepts that only in a knowledge of himself and a knowledge of his fellow man can he find the understanding that will help to a life of fulfilment."


Correspondingly … Jesus.. and.. David said..


"Since it has been said that you are my twin and true companion.. examine yourself! - Examine yourself.. so that you may understand who you are... And you will be called the one who knows them self! For whoever has not know them self.. has known nothing. But whoever has known them self.. has simultaneously achieved knowledge of the depth of the ALL!


"They have not known, and they do not understand; In darkness they keep walking about; All the foundations of the earth are made to totter.

I myself have said, 'You are gods, And ALL of you are sons of the Most High."

Thomas the Contender + Psalms 82:5

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We can only conclude…...

God works in mysterious ways




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AllOrNothing said:

I drew it to their attention.. that their beliefs sounded very much the same as religious teachings…

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To be an atheist simply means not believing in the existence of gods. It doesn't mean rejecting those aspects of the human condition that could apply to both the religious and non-religious.

We can only conclude…...

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God works in mysterious ways

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No, we can conclude differently.


eudaimonia,

Mark

AllorNothing,

I think, although some values are certainly the same, the essence of that mission statement is different from the Bible. You quoted several verses that correspond to the values of the mission statement, but how many verses of the Bible could be used to differentiate Christian teachings from this atheist paragraph?

For example:

1. An Atheist loves himself and his fellow man instead of a god.

Matthew 22: 36-40

"36 Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”"


So, although the Bible and the mission statement agree on loving our fellow man, they certainly do not agree about loving God.


2. An Atheist accepts that heaven is something for which we should work now -- here on earth -- for all men together to enjoy.



Philippians 3:20-21


"For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself."


Not only does this passage state plainly that heaven exists, but it also implies that there is a lot of our existence (our citizenship) left to experience in heaven. The atheist statement says that we are here for a small amount of time and that is it, so we should make the best of the lives we have. Although Christianity may not disagree with the sentiment of making Earth the best we can make it, there is clearly a discrepancy between believing in eternal life after Earth and not believing it.


3. An Atheist accepts that he can get no help through prayer..


1 John 5:14-15


"This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. And if we know that he hears us - whatever we ask - we know that we have what we asked of him."


Clearly this passage implies that prayer is effective to some degree. Admittedly, the Bible does say that you shouldn't pray for frivolous things out of greed, but it is obvious that Christianity preaches that we gain something out of prayer, otherwise, why bother doing it?



4. An Atheist accepts that only in a knowledge of himself and a knowledge of his fellow man can he find the understanding that will help to a life of fulfillment."


Hosea 6:3

"Let us know, Let us pursue the knowledge of the LORD. His going forth is established as the morning; He will come to us like the rain, Like the latter and former rain to the earth."


The key word in the atheist sentence here is "only." Christians would certainly believe that knowledge of God would also be crucial to fulfillment in life (even if the only knowledge was in his commandments). Atheists don't believe in God, so we obviously don't think knowledge in the supernatural is necessary.




All that aside, I really only had 2 points to make here.


1) Bible verses can be used to back up almost any claim. The Bible quote used probably says more about the person using it than it does the Bible itself.


2) There are certainly places where Christian and atheist values intersect, but to suggest that atheists are unknowingly following Christian values to the letter is silly. There exist notable differences between Christian teachings and this atheist mission statement that you posted.

wensdee said:

If there were no religions there would be no Atheists because not believing in a god is the default state.

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That's a wild assertion. Firstly, 'religion' and God are not mutually exclusive, but people have a hard time accepting one free of the other. Therefore, if there were no religions there could still be Atheists. Secondly, I disagree that 'Atheism' is the default state. Atheists have always been the minority and still are. Generally, when we're walking along a street and see a building, we naturally assume someone had to put it there, yet we can see incredibly complex information code (DNA) and think that it built itself. With the advent of 21st century technology, people don't see a need for God anymore, so there's more atheists than ever.