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Mormons baptize Gandhi

Michie

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India is calling Mahatma Gandhi’s proxy baptism in 1996 an “offensive act”

Mahatma Gandhi, the Father of the Indian Nation was forcibly “enrolled” in the Mormon faith by a U.S. church, in what is called a “proxy baptism”. The news which was reported by Times of India, an English language daily, is provoking strong reactions and discontent in India.


Continued- http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/homepage/world-news/detail/articolo/india-gandhi-13090/
 

Tigg

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One huge difference is a baby is alive - not dead. And can if he/she so wishes, as they grow up, drop the whole deal. The mark of baptism is still there but they can become a heathen if so desired. Or worship a tree stump.

A dead person makes no more decision on his/her baptism, or anything else as the trial period here is over.
 
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M

Memento Mori

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I heard a story similar to this on NPR a week ago. I think it was Eli Wiesel who was upset about the planned baptism of Holocaust victims.

Is this offensive? If Mormons believe that they can offer someone eternal happiness through a posthumous baptism - which said person is free to accept or reject in Mormon theology - then why wouldn't Mormons do so? The issue here seems to be an inability to tolerate Mormon beliefs about the afterlife. Taking offense at the practice is essentially the same as taking offense at the belief.

As Catholics, we would have no room to criticize Mormons here, because we share an underlying conviction that our respective religion is objectively the greatest good for all people. Many people react to this claim with anger, and that's what you see in the responses to this proxy baptism thing.
 
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Geode

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The Mormons think that what they are doing is an act of love for the deceased. According to their beliefs the proxy baptisms they perform have no binding effect at all on deceased people unless these people choose to accept it sometime in the hereafter.The Mormons feel that everyone must be baptized to obtain the highest degree of glory in their multi-tiered heaven and such an ordinance must be performed on earth during a "mortal state" and cannot be performed after a person is dead by themselves. They go beyond this and do proxy "endowments" which is another ordinance as well as proxy temple marriages. All of these involve people acting as "stand ins" for the dead.

A mortal body must be involved and people (gender specific) can stand in as a proxy. I think Joseph Smith came up with the concept using one passage in the Bible:
I Corinthians 15:29, "Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?"
Personally I find this rather cryptic as I do not think there is historical evidence that people were baptized for the dead in Paul's era.

The Mormons often are surprised that people are offended, as they see this "work" as sort of a free insurance policy offered with no strings attached. I however can see how it offends some people for they perceive this as the Mormons claiming these people as converts, which is not really the concept.

I personally was subject to something similar. I was born into a Mormon family in a Catholic hospital. My mother told me when I was still pretty young that a priest had come around and baptized all the babies born the same day as me. I was not offended, figuring that it sort of "covered my bases" should the Catholics be right and the Mormons wrong on this subject. Later I would learn why Catholics believe in infant baptism, that the a person's soul is in great peril if they die before being baptized so they do it as early as possible to insure a possible place in heaven for all that they can. I came to think that the Catholics were simply doing me what they considered a favor, and I was actually touched instead of being offended.

When I was a teenager I went to a Mormon temple with a group of people my age and we all we part of being baptized for the dead. I was "assigned" four or five names of men who had died and whose details had been verified through the Mormons combing genealogical records. The names of ancestors of members of the LDS church generally stand in themselves (if they are "worthy" of getting the proper temple recommend). I had never heard the names before and most likely have never come across them again. I have no idea who they might have been. I guess it might even have been have been possible that they were Holocaust victims but that is quite unlikely.They were not singled out for any reason I can think of except for perhaps that the Mormons feel they have a special kinship with the Jewish people and they really wanted this proxy work to be available. The Mormon goal when I was one of them was to basically get the records of every single person that has ever lived and do this proxy work for them. I went through the baptism procedure with the name of the deceased people being spoken before I was dunked for each of the names. I would guess our group was involved with over 50 names that day, all supplied by a temple worker to the person doing the baptisms.

When I was a Mormon it was said that baptisms had been done for every deceased president of the US but one. From Mormon history lessons most of us assumed this must be Martin Van Buren, since he was often heavily criticized in our lessons for not aiding the Mormons when they were being persecuted. It is said that Brigham Young when hearing of this president;s death announced in a meeting that President Van Buren had died and gone to hell. Somebody was said to have remarked,"President Young, you shouldn't say that." Brigham then said, "You are right. President Van Buren has died and gone to hell, and I'm sorry." However, it was revealed that it more likely was Andrew Jackson due to a perceived genocide on his part.

It is a controversial subject that comes to a head very few years. No matter what is said by Mormon representatives they really, really want to baptize everyone that they can as they feel it is important to the persons who have died. I would guess that they would rather error of the side of causing offense than leave it all "undone."
 
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I can't picture Ghandi on a bicycle with a shirt and tie and helmet passing out Books of Mormon, abstaining from tea, believing in spirit babies and the planet Kolob, and having secret undergarments with sealing ceremonies. Pretty sure the guy was a solid Hindu.
 
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SemperFidelis

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A whole branch of my family tree moved from England to the US in the 19th century and has had basically all my deceased relatives proxy-baptised. On the upside, the Mormons seem to keep great genealogical records which has made researching my family tree so much easier.


-Steve
 
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Ave Maria

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Somehow I don't think Gandhi would appreciate this but then again, you never know. Gandhi seemed to be a very tolerant type of person. That said, I really think the Mormons should stop baptizing people of other religions posthumously, especially without the permission of a relative or someone who was very close to them and would know their wishes about such a thing. Personally, I would be quite angry if I knew a Mormon was going to posthumously baptize me. But then again, hopefully I'll be in Purgatory or Heaven after my death and won't even have to worry about anger then.
 
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AMDG

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Don't think Gandhi would appreciate this. It's an out-and-out showing of disrespect for the person's wishes *and* Faith whether alive or dead. And legally, no one can act for another without a power of attorney. So this Baptism of the Dead shows disrespect for law too.

And you know that once Baptized for the Dead, the dead is then treated as if he was in fact Mormon--they have even sealed wives to some of our dead Popes that they have Baptized for the Dead.

You know, that there have complaints and even a lawsuit about this. About the lawsuit, Jews were quite upset that Holocaust victims were being Baptized for the Dead. The LDS promised to stop. Think it was a "piecrust promise" though--easily made and just as easily broken.
 
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Ave Maria

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Yeah, I also seriously doubt Gandhi would appreciate this. That said, about the Jewish holocaust victims being baptized, it may be going on yet again but this time in secret. Who knows. I hope not though.
 
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MKJ

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Well, I might be able to picture him abstaining from tea. But he seemed pretty open about undergarments!
 
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Geode

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Both sides of my family moved from the UK to America in the 19th Century. My father's side were "Manchester Mormons" and part of a rather significant period of emigration.
 
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AMDG

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that article irritated me. apparently, higher ups in the church forget there is a valid qualifer for true ignorance. their intent is to get people to heaven, shouldn't that be all that matters?

The intent of Mormon Baptism is getting someone to heaven? Mormons do not believe that there is a hell. I think the object of Mormon Baptism for the Dead is allowing a person to become a god like they believe all Mormon men do. And according to the statement of their own religion, they are supposed to respect both other's religions and the law. However, in this case neither is shown respect. Besides it really annoys non-Mormons.
 
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Geode

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The Mormons do in fact regard baptism as having an effect on a person's place in heaven. They believe in three degrees of glory in heaven. They believe that to enter the top degree of glory, The Celestial Kingdom, that one must be baptized. They believe this can be done by proxy for the dead. Mormons beleive in a form of hell but they term it "outer darkness" and think Satan and his followers end up there.

The Mormons most emphatically do not believe that all Mormon men will become gods. As a single Mormon they had me consigned to being at best a "ministering angel" in heaven. It is a matter of opinion whether or not their actions do not respect other people's religion. I think it can be, and has been done on the sneak at times. I do not think it is illegal to baptize for the dead.
 
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AMDG

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I said that *Mormons don't believe in hell.* There are the three heavens (and I think Doctrines and Covenants 132 says that celestial marriage allowins Mormons who marry in the temple and practice polygamy to enter the highest heaven. The LDS no longer practice polygamy on this earth, but D&C has never been changed.) Believe the outer darkness is saved for ex-Mormons.

The Mormons most emphatically do not believe that all Mormon men will become gods.

Picky, Picky, Picky. Okay. Good Mormon men who marry in the Temple (and practice polygamy in the afterlife) will be "exalted"--that is become gods. The not-so-good Mormon men will be sent to the other two levels of heaven (of course, according to the Mormons, I believe that good non-Mormons can also be assured of going to the lowest level of heaven.

The Mormon Articles of Faith (believe it is #11, but I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm mistaken) states that they believe that all men should be allowed to worship God as they see fit. (Hmmm--I guess an afterthought is "after the people die, we'll just baptize them Mormon, so it doesn't matter *what* they believe.) Another of the Mormon Articles of Faith (can't remember the number now) states that Mormons obey lawful authority. (Well, according to law, one must have a power of attorney to act in the behalf of someone else, so....I guess that means that when it comes to Baptism of the Dead, that is ignored.)

Here's the Articles of Faith:

http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,106-1-2-1,FF.html

Oh and here's Doctrines and Covenants 132:

http://seminary.lds.org/manuals/doc...her-resource-manual/dc-trm-6-124-38-dc132.asp
 
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