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Misconceptions (Homosexuality)

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Mechanical Bliss

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Zaac said:
Since we do not live in a secular theocracy either,

There is no such thing as a secular theocracy!

If a governing body is not theocratic such that its laws are justified by certain religious beliefs, as in the case of the United States government as required by the Constitution, then the governing body is secular by definition.

Your "objection" is invalid and nonsensical.

your objections to the stance of my religion STILL fails to get same -sex couples married.

The point is that your religious stance is irrelvant to how United States laws are determined. They are not determined by what the Bible says or what you think it says. Case closed.

And as it stands, your marrying someone of the same -sex will continue to not be honored by those of this antique religion who still have influence in this dying world.

I don't care whether homosexual marriages are recognized by religious fundamentalists. I care whether homosexual marriages are recognized by the state because homosexuals deserve equal rights.
 
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Zaac

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Zaac

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Mechanical Bliss said:
There is no such thing as a secular theocracy!

There has to be otherwise I could not have put the words on the screen.


Invalid and nonsensical? Now you stop being mean to me.



The point is that your religious stance is irrelvant to how United States laws are determined. They are not determined by what the Bible says or what you think it says. Case closed.

Apparently not cause the marriages are still being blocked and unrecognized.


I don't care whether homosexual marriages are recognized by religious fundamentalists. I care whether homosexual marriages are recognized by the state because homosexuals deserve equal rights.

Well unless you're planning on starting your own state, you better start to care.
 
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seebs

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Carri20 said:
4. Sexuality and race are two completely different things. I most certainly am not a racist. Satan doesn't influence people to be black or white as he influences people to be gay, or murderous, or proud.

Friend, I must ask. Have you considered the possibility that human sexuality may be a primarily biological thing? What if being gay is like being born with any other difference from the biological norm, and the sin question comes, not in to whom we are physically attracted, but how we handle that attraction?

Satan did not make me physically attracted to people I'm not married to. It is my biological nature, as God designed me, that I am attracted to about half the people out there. The temptation to sin comes in the temptation to act on attractions I shouldn't act on.

[bible]Matthew 5:28[/bible]

Do we not all face the same temptations?

Our sins are no different from anyone else's.

[bible]Romans 2:1[/bible]

This is not a condemnation conditional on our hypocrisy; it is a clear statement that our hypocrisy is not conditional. We do do the same things we condemn, even if we do them differently.

And just for the record, we already do have perfectly equal rights. Gay people have just as much right as I do to marry someone of the opposite gender. No one is being oppressed here.

Back in the day, black people and white people both had the same right, to marry someone of their own race. I don't think the mere fact that a set of words that's the same for everyone exists makes a situation fair.

I think gay people are denied the right to marry a person they can be physically attracted to. There may be sound reasons for this, but to deny it is to start the conversation off with a disingenuous attempt to get away from the core of the matter, and I think it does us no good.

I urge you to read the court ruling in Loving v. Virginia, which addresses many of the arguments we see in these threads. (This is my citation for the claims about the nature of restrictions on marriage, BTW.)
 
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jasperbound

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I do have to agree that homosexuals are being denied a right that monogamous and unrelated heterosexuals are given: the right to marry the one(s) they love. Sure, technically, they, along with polygamists and incestuous lovers, have the same right as monogamous and unrelated heterosexuals to marry, but practically they don't.
Do we, as Christians, have the right to tell two consenting adults who they can marry. I personally do not (although we definitely warn them of their sin). In fact, I'd say the same for not only the homosexuals, but also the polygamous, because if two consenting adults marrying is all right, then I do not see how three consenting adults marrying is pure evil that the government must stop. After all, as many of the gay marriage advocates would say, love and attraction are natural, and what consenting adults do in the privacy of their bedroom is nobody's business (which, logically, should apply even when there's more than two consenting adults), even if it disgusts us.
 
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CaDan

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On the line by line (fear the line by line!)

Pull, pull, pull! I want no new responses in 2AR!
 
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Hadron

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I was living in homosexuality and God showed me a better way. I hated Christianity before, because I was condemned by it. I hated God for making me the way I was. When I got saved, I realized I had been so deceived by the world.

Keep on keeping on, Carri20.
 
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atoborch

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1) learn how to argue, there are books about it you might of had one your freshman year in enghlish class(thats in HS) i'm beging to wonder if you have graduated that yet even
2) aging no warrant, no reason to prefer
3) no clash, you never address my points you make off the wall statments that have little to nothing to do what i'm saying
4) closed mindness is a good sign of bigtory as a generall rule of thumb

Zaac said:
And you're being treated just like any person who wanted to marry someone of the same sex would be treated.

1) no warrant
2) no reason to prefer, why is that status quo better than what i'm suggesting
3) no clash, this has nothing to do with the nature of homosexuality being a sin
4) feeds orginal point, that the status quo treatment of homosexuals is unfair an un-equatable

Zaac said:
Wrong again. There is no more burden placed upon you than there would be for straight unmarried couples in the same predicament.

1)no reason to prefer
2) no clash
3) feed my unquiness argement and my link to in-equality, you prove the unfair burrend placed on the homosexual couple because you conside the fact that a hetrosexual couple can get married further more at the point where a homosexual couple can't you see the unfair burden placed on the homosexual couple


1) no warrant
2) you conside the fact you are closed minded i did not do that for you
3)you attmept to further the status quo which in and of its slef has a discrmatory stance toward the homosexual
4) if you did like them would you let them get married, the answer is obvisluly yes thus proving your dis-like at the very least


Zaac said:
What is with this attempt to present some sort of half-baked legal talk? How is that a violation of equal rights? If no same sex people, straight or homosexual can get married, where is someone being treated unequally?

1) no warrant
2)no reason to perfer
3) its not legal talk when i can prove abuse and all you can do is say no, if you would like to negate the abuse or try to prove me wrong then please do, that was point less of me to say oh yeah, no clash
4) you never tell me what equally means so i have no idea where you are coming from on this one




Zaac said:
You actually haven't said much of anything.

1) i know you haven't said much of anything, its really hard to say anything to you because all you do is say i'm right over and over again using deffer words
2) feeds all my no warrants
3) feeds all my no reasons to prefer
4) heck that really feeds everything i've been saying, becuase you have not expaned on the fact that you agree with Carri on number 4, you might have well of just cut and pasted the comment and just keep hitting control V



Zaac said:
I don't have to provide a definition of equality because ain't nobody been treated unequally.
Gay people can't marry the same sex, and neither can straight people.

1)sure you don't have to proved a counter def, but then don't complain when i use my to referance back to
2) you never show the bias in my def, moreover you never show how my defination hurts any of your points(if you and some that would be good too) or how it hurts and ground that you think you have lost becuase of my def we need def to understand what we are talking about other wise people like you would acctually win arguments and that would be sad.

Zaac said:
That's the way it is with truth. People argue and add to opinions.

1) what are you talking about, i don't even think you know, you don't even know how to construct an argument you just have your opinion and you think your right, you never tell me how you are right, why you are right, just that you are right, that does not work becuase i could say that the world is flat and think i'm right, well you know what i would not be, that is all you are doing, just with people civil right something far more important the the shape of the earth



Zaac said:
If you're not talking about sexual intercourse then stop saying that they can sleep with whomever they want.

As I said, the other sector of society also cannot marry people of the same sex.

1) are you brain dead that is the abuse, that is what is unequal why do you keep help my argument and thinking that you are making a point for your self
2) no warrant
3) no reason to prefer the status quo
4) your above statments condradict each other, if i can sleep with a woman then marry her i should be able to do so with a man, i don't see why that is so hard to understand



Zaac said:
Gosh, you thought I was attempting to argue? I don't argue about God's Word. As you said earlier , I was very repetitive, as I will always be when it comes to God's Word.

1) no warrant
2) no reason to perfer
3) you talk about God's word but yet you never show me any bible passage that would show me that a Goverment can't allow two people of the same sex to marry if you can do that then you can say you are talking about God's word
4) if you are going to be repetiave you will never win any arugment no matter how right you happen to be

Zaac said:
As far as being closed minded, you finally got something right because my mind is closed to everything that runs against God's Word and of this I am not in any manner ashamed.

no wonder you have no idea:
1) that you are losing this argment with not just me but with about 3 other people
2) that you are just perpuating a cycle of hate on the homosexual comunity that is spured on by the religous right
 
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Zaac

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Zaac

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Praise God for your deliverance. It is indeed a deceptive spirit.
 
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Zaac

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You continue to be humerous.
 
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atoborch

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"Here's a general rule of thumb for ya. I rarely if ever respond to anyone who cannot present a cogent thought."

you should take your own advice, you have lost, i'm not going to try to expalin anything more to you becuase you won't listen or engage in any productive dialog, thus completly negating the point of this type of communcation, and this topic as a whole
 
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CaDan

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Zaac said:
You continue to be humerous.

I say we go with Rawls for this one.

Tell me, Zaac, if you were designing a society, but had no idea what role you would have in that society (that is, you had no idea if you would be rich or poor; black or white; straight or gay), what rules would you have for that society? Specifically, how would you set up the rules for marriage?

Obligatory support link: http://www.wku.edu/~jan.garrett/ethics/johnrawl.htm
 
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beechy

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Zaac said:
What Constitutional right have you been denied?
Are you asking for a Constitutional Law 101 discussion here? Con Law is extraordinarily complicated, and it would be difficult to pack an entire substantive due process/equal protection discussion into a single post (perhaps a good topic for another thread). However, I'll say this briefly and in sum:

The 14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution prohibits states from denying individuals equal protection of the law (aka the Equal Protection (EP) clause). This means that people who are "similarly circumstanced" must be treated the same under the law. The concept of "similar circumstance" is important because the EP clause is not meant to require that everyone be treated exactly the same (the law can provide that only old people can get social security, for example).

So if a law (like a marriage law) is going to apply differently to different classes of people (like gays and straights), and if that classification is challeneged as an EP violation, it must pass one of three tests: the Rational Basis Test (the most lenient), the Intermediate Scrutiny test (rarely used), or the Strict Scrutiny test (a heightened level of scrutiny that is rarely met). Which test is used depends on the right involved or the classification at issue.

In the case of same-sex marriage, the argument is that the Strict Scrutiny Test should be applied, because the laws as they exist today improperly interfere with a fundamental right, that is, the right of gay people -- who are attracted only to those of the same gender -- to marry who they choose (marriage was recognized as a fundamental privacy right in Loving v. Virginia).

The Strict Scrutiny test requires the government to show that the classification at issue is necessary to achieve a compelling government interest. In this case, the state would be required to show that limiting an individual's spousal choices to members of the opposite sex such that gay people, unlike straight people, are effectively denied the right to marry the person of their choice (in other words, creating a straight rather than gay set of spousal choices) is necessary to achieve a compelling government interest. I don't think it is, and I can't imagine what a successful argument might be (again, strict scrutiny is almost never met).

The former dean of UC Berkeley's Boalt Hall School of Law breaks down the likely issues nicely: http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2004/02/27_samesex.shtml.
 
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