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guzman

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Let's play like we're all standing in a driveway looking at a nice car, let's say a Chevy Tahoe, just for mental purposes. If you're a creationist, you might believe (if that Tahoe was a lifeform) that a Supernatural Creator miraculously created it fully-formed and fully functional, ready to drive. This scenario, of course, seems, improbable, impossible -- not to mention repulsive -- to evos in here.

But is the atheist alternative actually less miraculous or more probable?

Think about it:

Instead of one giant miracle, whereby the whole vehicle appeared miraculously out of seemingly nowhere, what evos expect us to believe is that all the tiny little Tahoe parts somehow appeared out of nowhere, for no reason, at different times throughout history. All the nuts and bolts and engine parts, all the leather and seatbelts and buckles, all the lights and speakers and carpet, all the wires and brake pads and shocks -- all appeared by accident, out of nowhere, and for no purpose. Cute little miracles, all.

But how is this any less miraculous? We all know there's a Tahoe sitting in the driveway -- how is it any less miraculous if the Tahoe gets created whole, all at once, or if it gets piece-mealed together over time? Just because the pieces are small does not make their origin out of nowhere any less miraculous.


Of course atheist evos will attempt to confuse the issue by saying these parts don't actually arise out of nowhere, that they arise out of DNA changing, but ultimately, there is no difference. All they're doing here is pushing their lack of evidence under the rug, somewhere we can't see it.

But now the question would change to: where does the information come from in DNA that creates a new seatbelt or a horn (sticking with our car analogy)? No matter how you slice it, the information, whether you are a creationist or an evolutionist, has an unverifiable, unscientific source: Evos call it lucky nothingness, creationists call it a supernatural God, neither of which can be seen. (Interestingly, both information and God are non-physcial...so if you choose to deny one on the basis that it's non-provable, then you must also deny the other.)

So you evos who keep laughing at creationists really should be laughing at yourselves, because you are no more intelligent, no more scientific, no more rational, no less religious than creationists are. Your thing is, you just simply don't believe in God, which is an act of faith (or non-faith). But just because you don't believe in God does not make your argument any more scientific, proven by the fact that no one can seem to present a genetic mutation that creates/adds a floormat, a speaker, a lung, an eardrum, or any other structure. Neither can you present a mutation that adds parts of these. Mutations are not your savior. They are not creators, therefore you are stuck without one, which effectively falsifies your position. My position has not yet been falsified.
 
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GoSeminoles!

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And what of the many evolutionists who do beleive in a god?
 
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Tenka

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Guzman, you have an absolute mess of a post there.

I think most creationists would look at you strangely if you told them you thought a supernatural being built your Tahoe.
But is the atheist alternative actually less miraculous or more probable?
If the atheist alternative is that it was assembled in Mexico, then yes it is less miraculous.
I'm sure the GM accounting department can tell you where all the components are sourced and will assure you that accidents are minimised where ever possible.
So you evos who keep laughing at creationists really should be laughing at yourselves,
Not today, friend.
 
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Loudmouth

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what evos expect us to believe is that all the tiny little Tahoe parts somehow appeared out of nowhere, for no reason, at different times throughout history.

No evolutionists has ever made this claim.

But now the question would change to: where does the information come from in DNA that creates a new seatbelt or a horn (sticking with our car analogy)?

It comes from the sequence of bases which are randomly changed each generation and then filtered through natural selection.
 
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Washington

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Why single out atheists? Most Catholics and main stream protestants, and 20% of evangelicals believe in evolution. One is inclined to conclude they're too much of an embarrassment to the creationist argument to mention.




Ah yes, bringing up a salient point is an attempt to "confuse the issue." Trying to head off the posse at the pass. Sorry, but this trite tactic doesn't work. Changes in DNA structure just happens to actually bring about changes in organisms, and no amount of denial can alter that. It's one of those facts of life things, kind of like, all creationists web sites lie.



But now the question would change to: where does the information come from in DNA that creates a new seatbelt or a horn (sticking with our car analogy)?
Why not try reading the literature on the subject rather than argue from ignorance?

No matter how you slice it, the information, whether you are a creationist or an evolutionist, has an unverifiable, unscientific source: Evos call it lucky nothingness,
What evolutionists call it that? Now you're beginning to make things up like a backwoods preacher.




So you evos who keep laughing at creationists really should be laughing at yourselves, because you are no more intelligent, no more scientific, no more rational, no less religious than creationists are.
Au contraire, Evolutionists are vastly more scientific than most creationists. And what is this about evolutionists being "no less religious"? Are you saying that evolution is a religion? Come, come, guzman, even the creationists leadership doesn't blow that much smoke.


Your thing is, you just simply don't believe in God, which is an act of faith (or non-faith).
Boy, you do revel in ignorance don't you.


Pew poll, 2005​


What are you, 13 years old or so? And I ask this in all seriousness.
 
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Dal M.

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This could have been losslessly compressed down to: "Evolutionists say mutations happen; I disagree. Also they hate God."

Here are some new features produced by mutation. Given your behavior in the past, however, I fully expect you to handwave these away even though they're exactly what you asked for.
 
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guzman

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I said new structures, not features. There are millions of structures to account for in the animal kingdom -- you and ToE can't account for the origin of even one. It's the epitome of pathetic.

now try again.
 
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ReverendDG

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I said new structures, not features. There are millions of structures to account for in the animal kingdom -- you can't account for the origin of even one.

now try again.
why do we need to account for every one? if we can account for one, you can draw the conclusion that the others evolved in a similar way

namely that an earlier function was co-oped by a later one
even so, why do we need to, if we can't does that mean what we can stops being valid or correct?

i have a question, what do you mean by structure anyway?
 
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Loudmouth

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then explain to me how a bodypart, such as an eardrum came to be.

Chalnoth took care of the eardrum, so I will take care of the incus and stapes, two bones in the middle ear which connect to the eardrum.

These two bones of the mammalian middle ear are modified versions of reptillian jaw bones. The evolution of the mammalian middle ear can be seen in these fossils:



Perhaps you want to take this little statement back?

you and ToE can't account for the origin of even one. It's the epitome of pathetic.--guzman/SS​


Edited to add: How many structures has creationism/ID explained?
 
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Lazuline

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But now the question would change to: where does the information come from in DNA that creates a new seatbelt or a horn (sticking with our car analogy)?
If you're going to stick with the car analogy, it should be noted that cars don't have DNA. Incidentally, that's part of the reason it really isn't analagous at all.
 
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Willtor

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If you're going to stick with the car analogy, it should be noted that cars don't have DNA. Incidentally, that's part of the reason it really isn't analagous at all.

Yeah. I heard a similar thing used by Hovind at one point where he argued that an evolutionist might be inclined to think that a spork was a transitional form between spoons and forks.

On that point, Guzman, are you suggesting that a Tahoe, left to its own devices will... reproduce?
 
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BrainHertz

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This one again?

Ok... whatever. I'll assume again that you use the term "information" with its conventional meaning, as in, as originally proposed by Claude Shannon. If you have an alternative definition, please provide it together with a justification.

In this case, there is no mystery as to the source of information. Information is generated by any stochastic process, and, when taken together with the 2nd law of thermodynamics (which I know many around here are very fond of referencing) it can be demonstrated that in any closed system the total amount of information can never decrease. It can, however, increase up to the maximum that can be encoded in that system.

Do you need a reference for that? I can find one if necessary. Otherwise, you can just Google ' "Claude Shannon" 1948 ' and you should find the paper.
 
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Soul Searcher

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Let's play like we're all standing in a driveway looking at a nice car, let's say a Chevy Tahoe, just for mental purposes.

If I were looking at a Chevy Tahoe and thinking I am seeing a nice car I believe I would have to see a doctor and find out what is going on with my brain. Seeing as how 1 a Tahoe is not a car and 2 I certianly would not think of it as a nice car more like and oversize gas guzzling machine for which I have no real use.

Got any other examples?
 
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guzman

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you can't account for any, much less all of them.
 
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guzman

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ToE is a materialist theory -- it's a theory of things. DNA, according to evolutionsits are things....therefore these "things" must somehow stand for information to build a body....so if these things stand for information -- such as part of an eye -- the information that coded into genes must have a source....how does a gene "know" to be an iris, for example?
 
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guzman

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If you're going to stick with the car analogy, it should be noted that cars don't have DNA. Incidentally, that's part of the reason it really isn't analagous at all.
the reason I used a car is because it's no less of a miracle that a nut or bolt or horn appears out of nowhere than it is that a heart, lung or appendix appearing out of nowhere. Yet, no one in their right mind would believe a nut or bolt or horn could appear out of nowhere for no reason.
 
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Chalnoth

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Well, organs don't appear out of nowhere. They are modified versions of ancestral structures.
 
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