• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

The Cadet

SO COOL
Apr 29, 2010
6,290
4,743
Munich
✟53,117.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Democrat
Often, when referring to events in the past, I hear people refer to "miracles" - supernatural events caused by some being outside of the reality we are able to experience. It is often shot back that "appealing to magic doesn't help in science". There are two parts to that statement - that miracles are somehow equivalent to magic, and that they are useless in a scientific discussion. Let's tackle both parts of that, shall we?


1. Miracles being equivalent to magic

Firstly, the equivalency. Miracles are, by definition, supernatural. They are events which effect the natural world, typically in ways that the currently observed laws of nature do not allow for, with a cause that lies outside of the natural world. For example, god forcing the earth to stand still in its path - the cause is a god's will (outside of nature), the effect clearly is impossible according to the observed laws of nature (just to name a few principles violated here, inertia, conservation of energy, gravity).

However, as they are supernatural, even if we can establish beyond the shadow of a doubt that something incredibly unlikely or unrealistic happened, we have no way of crediting it. You don't even have to go far into the realm of science fiction to understand this. A thousand years ago, if someone saw a carefully-staged CGI video of a man turning into a lion, they might believe it to be a miracle as well. I reckon that given today's technology, I could easily convince a man from the middle ages that he had met whatever god I felt like convincing him existed. When we extrapolate this to futuristic technology, it becomes even more extreme - the alleged Fatima Sun Miracle could have easily been replicated by aliens with advanced technology.

But when we extrapolate to supernatural causation, we suddenly hit a complete and total roadblock. If there is a supernatural cause for an event, how could we possibly examine this cause? It is, after all, outside of nature. To give an example, if we pray to Yahweh to give us a new car, and a brand new Audi poofs into existence in our garage in front of our very eyes, how do we know Yahweh was the one that gave it to us? How do we know it wasn't Satan? Or Allah? Or any number of other hypothetical supernatural beings? Or any number of hypothetical hyper-advanced non-supernatural beings? We have no way to know.

In this way, appealing to a "miracle" is essentially the same as appealing to "magic". Because that's really what it boils down to - an unattributable supernatural phenomenon. You're saying "some magical process caused this and we have no way of getting to the bottom of it". There's really not much of a difference.


2. The Uselessness of Miracles to Science

So why doesn't science accept supernatural explanations? Science is first and foremost about creating functional models of reality, which we can then use to make predictions and better understand reality. A miracle misses every single point on here. Miracles destroy functional models of reality, as they do not allow for such models to be made. What is the point of the laws of motion if, at any point, a supernatural being could completely suspend them? Miracles allow for no predictions, as they seem to be completely based on forces that we have absolutely no way of understand, let alone predicting. A miracle claim is, in science, worthless.

Beyond that, though, in epistemology, it's also a dead end. Miracle claims are, as previously explained, unattributable, but they are also unjustifiable. You are proposing an explanation which explicitly ignores what we know about reality. Why can't I then propose something which ignores reality just as much? If you're allowed to make that miracle claim, what stops me from making the miracle claim that the universe came into existence 30 seconds ago as it was right then, and that everything else is backfilled by false memories?

In essence, this means that if I ask you "how does your theory account for X" and your best answer is "a miracle happened", then you don't have an answer. You have just inserted "magic" into your formula, and magic allows for anything. Something which accounts for everything accounts for nothing.

So in conclusion, when I ask "if the story of Noah was true, where did the water come from and where did it go", and your best answer is "god put it there and removed it with a miracle", you have abandoned the realm of both science and rational debate. I am perfectly justified in rejecting your answer, and you have no ground to stand on when it comes to justifying it.

So if the topic is science, please don't try to bring miracles into the picture. You cannot justify them, they serve no purpose, and to anyone who understands science, they just get obnoxious after a while. If you cannot justify your chronology without miracles, then you cannot justify your chronology, and if you're intellectually honest, you will come up with an alternative which does not invoke supernatural causation, or admit that you don't have an answer.
 

Justatruthseeker

Newbie
Site Supporter
Jun 4, 2013
10,132
996
Tulsa, OK USA
✟177,504.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others

So if I ask you how an electron positioned here affects an electron positioned miles away - and your best answer is magic, then whats that say?

Or if I ask you how matter is both wave and particle - and you answer I don't know, it just is - then you have no answer except the miracle.

Or if I ask you where did the universe come from and you tell me a condensed point - but that it also occurred everywhere at the same time - we can assume it was magic - since no such thing is ever observed to occur?

Funny how some want to claim science while still using miracles.
 
Upvote 0

The Cadet

SO COOL
Apr 29, 2010
6,290
4,743
Munich
✟53,117.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Democrat
So if I ask you how an electron positioned here affects an electron positioned miles away - and your best answer is magic, then whats that say?

My best answer isn't magic. My answer is infinitely simpler and far less likely to impede real progress: "I don't know"*. What we do know is that it happens, and that whether or not we know how it happens, the fact that it does happen needs to be considered in any models.

*I Am Not A Quantum Physicist. An actual quantum physicist might be able to help you on this one.

Or if I ask you how matter is both wave and particle - and you answer I don't know, it just is - then you have no answer except the miracle.

"I don't know" is a perfectly honest, viable answer. The "miracle" answer is not honest or viable. It's an ad-hoc excuse for an answer that has no testable traits and offers us no predictive model.** There's nothing wrong with admitting not to know something. But just inserting an answer because you can think of no other explanation, regardless of whether or not that answer is actually supported, is simply untenable.

**Also, on a more broad note, almost every time we've inserted a miracle explanation for naturalistic phenomena, it's not only been replaced by us finding a natural cause which accounts for the phenomena in question, but it has actively resisted being replaced, regardless of how wrong it was. "I don't know" does not have this problem.

Or if I ask you where did the universe come from and you tell me a condensed point - but that it also occurred everywhere at the same time - we can assume it was magic - since no such thing is ever observed to occur?

IANAQP, but I'm pretty sure you're misrepresenting big bang cosmology. And the significant difference is, again, the effect is being described and the cause is not being attributed to some supernatural force. If any cause is proposed, it must be falsifiable and testable. If you claim the cause is supernatural in origin, we immediately lose both of those possibilities.
 
Upvote 0

Smidlee

Veteran
May 21, 2004
7,076
749
NC, USA
✟21,162.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Science does deals with supernatural events like the Big Bang and inflation , the miracle dead soup coming alive and the miracle of an ape becoming an scientist and deny their creator. CS Lewis notice that modern day science had some things in common with magic.
 
Upvote 0

The Cadet

SO COOL
Apr 29, 2010
6,290
4,743
Munich
✟53,117.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Democrat
Science does deals with supernatural events like the Big Bang and inflation , the miracle dead soup coming alive and the miracle of an ape becoming an scientist and deny their creator.

How are any of these supernatural? The big bang is based entirely on observed phenomenon in nature. The formation of early life from basic chemicals is an attempt to formulate an entirely naturalistic explanation for the reality that at one point, there was no life on earth, and now, there is - again, no magic. You don't seem to grasp the concept very well. Something is not "magic" simply because it is unlikely or seemingly weird.
 
Upvote 0

Justatruthseeker

Newbie
Site Supporter
Jun 4, 2013
10,132
996
Tulsa, OK USA
✟177,504.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others

Where, where have you ever observed a big bang? You mean things you misinterpret?

Your misinterpretation of what redshift actually is?

http://www.newtonphysics.on.ca/hubble/

Your pretending dark matter exists while ignoring all that matter found?

http://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/nasa-s-hubble-finds-giant-halo-around-the-andromeda-galaxy

https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/chandra/news/H-12-331.html#.VWsgL0YjYig

http://blogs.nature.com/news/2008/05/does_the_universe_seem_dim_to.html

http://www.popsci.com/science/artic...d-dwarves-triples-number-known-stars-universe

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/galex/galex20090819.html

Your treating plasma like neutral matter? Despite no scientist that does so in any plasma laboratory?

And all your models when we can get in-situ measurements are wrong?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliosphere

""The IBEX results are truly remarkable! What we are seeing in these maps does not match with any of the previous theoretical models of this region."

http://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/scientists-discover-surprise-in-101025

""We thought it was known, but we came up with a major surprise,... We all have thought for our entire careers — I learned it as a graduate student...."Any space physicist, including me, would have said a year ago there could not be substorms when the interplanetary magnetic field was staying northward, but that's wrong,"

And why where they wrong? Because they ignore what causes these things.

"Charged particles carry currents, which cause significant modifications in the Earth's magnetosphere."

A theory they should be familiar with, since it was the one already shown to be the correct theory in 1963.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birkeland_current

http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2007/11dec_themis/

How long are you going to insist we use the wrong physics to explain electromagnetic events in plasma? How long are you going to let cosmologists treat a universe that is 99% plasma like dust and gas? And then ask that we accept 95% Fairie Dust precisely because they did so?

None of the data supports a big bang cosmology - none of it.
 
Upvote 0

Justatruthseeker

Newbie
Site Supporter
Jun 4, 2013
10,132
996
Tulsa, OK USA
✟177,504.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
What's worse is you ignore your own claims. The big bang - we'll pretend is true for this argument - was at the very first plasma. Supposedly 13+ billion years later it is still 99% plasma. But you use gravitational theory which applies only to neutral matter (solids, liquids, gasses - planets - solar systems) to a state of matter that plasma physicists do not apply gravitational theory too in any plasma laboratory, but electrodynamic theory.

So right off the bat you are treating it like a state of matter it is not. So of course since you expect it to behave one way - we of course have to have 95% ad-hoc assumptions to force it to fit. Instead of just treating plasma like plasma and using the correct theory for the correct states of matter.
 
Upvote 0

The Cadet

SO COOL
Apr 29, 2010
6,290
4,743
Munich
✟53,117.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Democrat
Where, where have you ever observed a big bang? You mean things you misinterpret?

[...]

None of the data supports a big bang cosmology - none of it.

I am not a cosmologist or physicist, and big bang cosmology is not something that I have looked into all that extensively, beyond a few episodes of PBS NOVA a few years back. I'm not going to debate this issue with people considerably better-equipped than me to do so, as the dunning-krüger effect essentially ensures that my own ability to judge whether the points they're making are actually supported by the evidence is completely compromised. I will particularly avoid this when their conclusions seem to run directly contrary to the consensus view within the field. Consider this me ceding the floor to you (and @Michael ) on this issue.


That said, everything you're saying here is irrelevant to the point I was making to Smidlee. Whether the big bang model is accurate or not, it is not dependent on supernatural causation nor does it claim any sort of supernatural cause. It's not "magic".
 
Reactions: DaisyDay
Upvote 0

Justatruthseeker

Newbie
Site Supporter
Jun 4, 2013
10,132
996
Tulsa, OK USA
✟177,504.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
*I Am Not A Quantum Physicist. An actual quantum physicist might be able to help you on this one.

No they can't either, because the math fails each and every time to explain that miracle.

I propose nothing science does not already know: That energy can neither be created nor destroyed and has always existed. That what makes you, well you, is this energy that all things are made of. And I accept that since energy is consciousness - in a universe filled with energy, the science all points to that consciousness acting. In a design that is brilliantly mathematical in nature.

I don't see around me billions of consciousness's, and deny that possibility in that same universe filled with the very energy that makes our thoughts possible. Don't ask you to believe, but don't try to claim it's scientifically impossible when you see that very thing all around you. Or supernatural or magical. Just shall we say unexplainable by today's science.

But someday science will be able to explain it - and they will run out of excuses when they do.
 
Upvote 0

The Cadet

SO COOL
Apr 29, 2010
6,290
4,743
Munich
✟53,117.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Democrat
That energy can neither be created nor destroyed and has always existed.

Actually, it's now widely hypothesized that the net energy of the universe is 0. That energy has always existed is not a given.

And I accept that since energy is consciousness

Wat
 
Upvote 0

Subduction Zone

Regular Member
Dec 17, 2012
32,629
12,069
✟230,471.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Actually, it's now widely hypothesized that the net energy of the universe is 0. That energy has always existed is not a given.



Wat
justa is an electric universe believer. It is a version of creationism for physicists. He can link all sorts of articles but very very few if any from well respected scientific journals. The idea is thought to be nonsense by almost all real physicists. He will then try to say that people are trying to claim that plasma does not exist or some other straw man argument. I am not an expert on physics either, I only know that my knowledge of physics tops his limited knowledge of physics.
 
Upvote 0

lasthero

Newbie
Jul 30, 2013
11,421
5,795
✟236,977.00
Faith
Seeker
It's a little more than that. I seem to recall he believes the universe I basically God's brain.
 
Upvote 0

Davian

fallible
May 30, 2011
14,100
1,181
West Coast of Canada
✟46,103.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Ignostic
Marital Status
Married
Both Justa and Michael have taken their different electric-plasma-universe concepts to actual astrophysics forums for discussion, where things did not go too well for them. Here, however, moderation lets them preach as they will.
 
Upvote 0

The Cadet

SO COOL
Apr 29, 2010
6,290
4,743
Munich
✟53,117.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Democrat
Both Justa and Michael have taken their different electric-plasma-universe concepts to actual astrophysics forums for discussion, where things did not go too well for them. Here, however, moderation lets them preach as they will.
Got a link for that?
 
Upvote 0

Smidlee

Veteran
May 21, 2004
7,076
749
NC, USA
✟21,162.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
No Big bang is totally creation of mathemagicians. Basic chemistry is totally random. There is no evidence of your Frankencell and penalty evidence against it.
 
Upvote 0

Subduction Zone

Regular Member
Dec 17, 2012
32,629
12,069
✟230,471.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Upvote 0

florida2

Well-Known Member
Sep 18, 2011
2,092
434
✟33,191.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private

Hilarious and instructive.

I don't mind posters here spouting their own pet theories (within forum rules) just as long as they don't try and shove in into every thread they talk about.
 
Upvote 0