Mind: emergent property or "Ghost in the machine"?

AV1611VET · Sep 13, 2006

Grummpy said:
I take it then, that you are Dualists?

I am tripartite --- three-in-one.

The brain is a physical part of the body, and decays along with it.

The mind has no known reference to anything on the Periodic Table, and makes up 1/3 of the soul.

Nooj · Sep 13, 2006

Is the mind an emergent property of the physical structure of the brain? Could this be the result of evolutionary processes?

This is my view.

In the future, can we expect some hypotheses about how we might have evolved our conciousness? I wonder how that will affect religion. Many already have a problem with common descent. If evidence builds up that our mind, thoughts, and ultimately beliefs all came from evolution of the brain...

caravelair · Sep 13, 2006

so far in this thread, no one has presented any logical argument in favor of the existence of a soul. all that has been present so far is personal opinion, and some bible quotes.

in fact, i don't think there is any logical argument which suggests the existence of such a thing. logic seems to suggest that the mind comes from the brain itself.

i think Chalnoth's argument was quite a good one.

Oncedeceived said:
IMHO, our mind is somewhat like a transmitter. It works on a physical plane. IF it is damaged, it can and does change our "self" on the physical plane. So alchohol, brain damage, and other physical mind altering mechanisms can affect the physical plane while not affecting the inner soul.

but when you are on alcohol or drugs, your state of mind can be completely altered. your sense of perception can be completely changed, you can forget who you are, where you are, etc. how does this suggest that any of the properties the "soul" is supposed to explain are left unchanged?

Oncedeceived · Sep 13, 2006

caravelair said:
but when you are on alcohol or drugs, your state of mind can be completely altered. your sense of perception can be completely changed, you can forget who you are, where you are, etc. how does this suggest that any of the properties the "soul" is supposed to explain are left unchanged?

The brain is a physical attribute. The soul is a spiritual one. Aperson is a person whether or not the brain functions in a "normal" way. If a person is on drugs or alcohol the brain is altered in a phsical way. The person is the same person even if the personality is changed. Personality does not equal soul. The soul is the spiritual attribute of a person.

JohnR7 · Sep 13, 2006

Chalnoth said:
If emotions come from the soul, how does alcohol affect peoples' emotions?

Emotions come from the body from the hormone and the rest of the chemicals.

Abongil · Sep 13, 2006

JohnR7 said:
Emotions come from the body from the hormone and the rest of the chemicals.

So then what does the soul do???

Is it like the governor on my engine? They insisted that my Mustang wouldnt work if I took it off, but lookie here, it runs better (and much faster) than ever.

MrGoodBytes · Sep 13, 2006

Oncedeceived said:
The brain is a physical attribute. The soul is a spiritual one. Aperson is a person whether or not the brain functions in a "normal" way. If a person is on drugs or alcohol the brain is altered in a phsical way. The person is the same person even if the personality is changed. Personality does not equal soul. The soul is the spiritual attribute of a person.

So what would happen if somebody is born without a soul, or lost it? Would this affect anything at all?

Abongil · Sep 13, 2006

MrGoodBytes said:
So what would happen if somebody is born without a soul, or lost it? Would this affect anything at all?

I sold my soul for a cookie alst week, and again this morning for a soda. Am I going to Hell twice?

Oncedeceived · Sep 13, 2006

MrGoodBytes said:
So what would happen if somebody is born without a soul, or lost it? Would this affect anything at all?

No one is born without a soul nor does anyone lose it according to Scripture. Although when someone has not been saved their soul is considered lost meaning that it is forever separated from God.

AV1611VET · Sep 13, 2006

Oncedeceived said:
No one is born without a soul nor does anyone lose it according to Scripture. Although when someone has not been saved their soul is considered lost meaning that it is forever separated from God.

Reminds me of that saying:

If you're saved --- you're born twice and die once.
If you're lost --- you're born once and die twice.

Chalnoth · Sep 13, 2006

Which reminds me of another saying, "I'm going to kill him until he's dead!" (my brother was fond of saying this and other similar things while playing video games)

Grummpy · Sep 13, 2006

AV1611VET

The mind has no known reference to anything on the Periodic Table, and makes up 1/3 of the soul.

OK, you,ve told me what it is not(if not physical) and you've told me where you believe it resides(if not in the physical brain). But you have not told me what it consists of(it's makeup, it's structure).

I can show you where the brain is, how it's activities are directly connected to the minds activities and how the mind is affected if the brain is damaged or portions are removed and altered. What odjective evidence can you offer to refute these facts?(I am not interested in discussing religious beliefs, just what you can prove)

Grumpy

rmwilliamsll · Sep 13, 2006

Abongil said:
I sold my soul for a cookie alst week, and again this morning for a soda. Am I going to Hell twice?

for selling it? for selling it twice?
if not for these two reasons, then it, your soul, must logically be a quantity of something not a single integral piece so:
don't you have enough left?

AV1611VET · Sep 13, 2006

Grummpy said:
What odjective evidence can you offer to refute these facts?

None.

AV1611VET said:
The mind has no known reference to anything on the Periodic Table...

David Gould · Sep 13, 2006

It seems to me that people are saying that the soul is unaffected by anything that happens to the brain (ie, alcohol, drugs, brain damage et cetera do not affect the soul).

Yet they also claim that it is affected by what happens to the brain, because they claim that this is where emotions stem from. Emotions are responses to things that we experience. We experience those things by seeing them, hearing them et cetera. And seeing or hearing something alters the physical structure of our brain - if it did not, we would not notice it at all.

So: if I see a child in pain, how can my soul know that there is a child in pain to respond empathically via emotion unless the soul is affected by alterations to the brain?

Be consistent here, please.

Chalnoth · Sep 13, 2006

Yup. The soul is just a moldy old concept that became outdated the moment people learned that our memories, thought processes, and emotions are due to electrochemical interactions in the brain. It's just taking an extra long time for this realization to filter down to the general populace (like so many other things, sadly).

Abongil · Sep 13, 2006

rmwilliamsll said:
for selling it? for selling it twice?
if not for these two reasons, then it, your soul, must logically be a quantity of something not a single integral piece so:
don't you have enough left?

No I sold the whole thing to two different people. I gave them a piece of paper that said "I, *my name*, give my complete and entire sould to *their name* for the rest of eternity"

And bam, cookie one day and soda the next.

AV1611VET · Sep 14, 2006

David Gould said:
It seems to me that people are saying that the soul is unaffected by anything that happens to the brain (ie, alcohol, drugs, brain damage et cetera do not affect the soul).

Yet they also claim that it is affected by what happens to the brain, because they claim that this is where emotions stem from. Emotions are responses to things that we experience. We experience those things by seeing them, hearing them et cetera. And seeing or hearing something alters the physical structure of our brain - if it did not, we would not notice it at all.

So: if I see a child in pain, how can my soul know that there is a child in pain to respond empathically via emotion unless the soul is affected by alterations to the brain?

Be consistent here, please.

As I said before, we are tripartite --- three-in-one.

The three have a symbiotic relationship with one another. Remove one, and the other two go their own way.

As to the channel that connects the three, I don't know what that is.

You can reverse the process you mentioned too. If you think of something salty, you "taste salt in your mouth". I believe this is called the power of suggestion.

h2whoa · Sep 14, 2006

As a geneticist who's specific research interest is the genetics of neuropathology I have no doubt that personality/soul/emotion/whatever is a direct product of the brain.

If there is an immortal soul, I find it hard to imagine how it could be so vastly altered by the range of insults that the brain can receive. Brain tumours can induce aspects of paedophilia. Damage to the frontal lobe can completely change someone's personality. The accumulation of beta amyloid plaques and the development of neurofibrilliary tangles are probably responsible for Alzheimer's. Anybody who has had to deal with someone with end-stage Alzheimer's knows that this is not the same person that they were before.

If the soul was a "real" thing rather than a by-product of neurochemistry I remain convinced that such profound personality changes would not be seen for physical, chemical, metabolic and genetic insults to the brain.

caravelair · Sep 14, 2006

Oncedeceived said:
The brain is a physical attribute. The soul is a spiritual one. Aperson is a person whether or not the brain functions in a "normal" way. If a person is on drugs or alcohol the brain is altered in a phsical way. The person is the same person even if the personality is changed. Personality does not equal soul. The soul is the spiritual attribute of a person.

says you. but so far i have seen no reason to believe such a thing exists. like i said, no one has yet presented a logical argument in this thread that favors the existence of a soul. all we've seen is opinion (above) and scripture.

Mind: emergent property or "Ghost in the machine"?

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