Mind: emergent property or "Ghost in the machine"?

Grummpy · Sep 12, 2006

This subject came up in a different thread. It is of great interest.

Is the mind an emergent property of the physical structure of the brain? Could this be the result of evolutionary processes?

OR

There is a "Ghost in the machine", a soul, if you will,made of a different stuff and having different properties than the matter making up the brain. As this is necessarily a supernatural entity, is it bestowed only on man?

I realize this is truly a philosophical question(s). But what say you???

Grumpy

variant · Sep 12, 2006

Grummpy said:
This subject came up in a different thread. It is of great interest.

Is the mind an emergent property of the physical structure of the brain? Could this be the result of evolutionary processes?

OR

There is a "Ghost in the machine", a soul, if you will,made of a different stuff and having different properties than the matter making up the brain. As this is necessarily a supernatural entity, is it bestowed only on man?

I realize this is truly a philosophical question(s). But what say you???

Grumpy

The "mind" is just a word, and a poorly defined one at that.

Substance dualism is a silly philosophy; there is no reason to believe that a "soul" exists.

If you are more careful with your wording these problems don't come up so much.

Grummpy · Sep 12, 2006

variant

Actually I am a biological naturalist. It has two main theses.

1.All mental phenomena from pains, tickles, and itches to the most abstruse thoughts are caused by lower-level neurobiological processes in the brain.

2. mental phenomena are higher level features of the brain

I do not think any form of dualism can be logically supported, the thing we call mind is just an emergent property of the brains structure and activities.

Grumpy

Chalnoth · Sep 12, 2006

Nah, there is no soul. This can be shown quite easily, in fact. Just consider this:
A soul is defined as the "essence" of what makes a person a person. It is an immortal something that carries our sense of self with us to the afterlife when we die. A soul is disconnected from the body, but resides within it.

Thus, if a soul is all of these things, then it should not be affected by anything that we do to a body. If a soul is a spirit that defines our sense of self, then no amount of damage to our brain should be able to change our sense of self.

And yet we all know that things that have physical effects on the brain have tremendous effects on personality. The most familiar one is alcohol: ingest enough alcohol, and suddenly people start making very different choices. How can our sense of self be a divine soul when our sense of self is directly affected by chemical alterations of our brain?

0rion · Sep 12, 2006

A soul is an unnecessary entity to explain the personality of a human or his actions. The brain already does that job. Chalnoth's explanation was a good one.
Sir William of Ockham's razor takes care of the rest.

variant · Sep 12, 2006

Grummpy said:
variant

Grummpy said:
Actually I am a biological naturalist. It has two main theses.

1.All mental phenomena from pains, tickles, and itches to the most abstruse thoughts are caused by lower-level neurobiological processes in the brain.

2. mental phenomena are higher level features of the brain

I still think that is rather vaguely defined. Until we understand it better the "mind" seems to be a poor mans label. Whatever is going on inside the brain is incredibly complex and poorly understood at best.

With scientific inquiry you are supposed to keep bias to a minimum, which means you shouldn’t form a concept of "the mind" before you investigate what is going on. A theory of "the mind" is fine, but it has to have testable parameters.

I am just being a pain in the butt empiricist, sorry.

I do not think any form of dualism can be logically supported, the thing we call mind is just an emergent property of the brains structure and activities.

Grumpy

Well I WAS rebutting both options

For option 1

We don't understand what the word "mind" points to.

For option 2

Dualism is silly.

JohnR7 · Sep 12, 2006

Grummpy said:
Is the mind an emergent property of the physical structure of the brain?

The mind is a part of the body, becasue when you die the body is no more.
The soul represents the personality. We are made up of body & soul.
For those who are born again, then they are made up of body, soul & spirit.

rmwilliamsll · Sep 12, 2006

I think that the problem stems from the current inability for outside-in neurobiology to meet with inside-out philosophical and religious thinking that we each experience. At this point we don't seem to be able to do full justice to both or connect the dots.

AV1611VET · Sep 12, 2006

Grummpy said:
Is the mind an emergent property of the physical structure of the brain? Could this be the result of evolutionary processes?

Grumpy,

The Bible says man is a tripartite being --- meaning he is made up of three parts in one (a trichotomy).

There are 5 major passages of Scripture to support this:

Genesis 2:7 said:
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Mark 12:30 said:
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

Hebrews 4:12 said:
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 said:
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord.

1 John 5:8 said:
And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Of the 5 above, we use 1 Thessalonians 5:23 as our defining verse, because it's much easier to remember.

Each part has a specific function:

body --- gives us world-consciousness through empirical data
soul --- gives us self-consciousness through emotions
spirit --- gives us God-consciousness through illumination

Remember: we're made in the likeness and image of God, and God is triune in nature.

p.s. The soul is the seat of the mind, the will, and the emotions. The mind is separate from the brain, which is part of the body.

Chalnoth · Sep 12, 2006

If emotions come from the soul, how does alcohol affect peoples' emotions?

AV1611VET · Sep 12, 2006

Chalnoth said:
If emotions come from the soul, how does alcohol affect peoples' emotions?

The soul houses the mind, the will, and the emotions. (I was going to include that, but forgot. Thanks for the reminder.)

Hydra009 · Sep 13, 2006

AV1611VET said:
The soul houses the mind, the will, and the emotions.

Normally, this is referred to as a "skull", and not its pre-scientific equivalent, a "soul".

AV1611VET · Sep 13, 2006

Hydra009 said:
Normally, this is referred to as a "skull", and not its pre-scientific equivalent, a "soul".

Huh?

What is referred to as a "skull"?

The mind or the soul?

Either way, the skull is part of the body, as it deteriorates after death.

BVZ · Sep 13, 2006

You have not answered the question.

If the soul houses (and is the source of) emotions, how does alcohol, which changes the chemistry of the brain, affect emotions?

AngryWomble · Sep 13, 2006

AV1611VET said:
Huh?

What is referred to as a "skull"?

The mind or the soul?

Either way, the skull is part of the body, as it deteriorates after death.

Only through such applications as can be provided by a baseball bat or similer objects......

Eudaimonist · Sep 13, 2006

Grummpy said:
Is the mind an emergent property of the physical structure of the brain? Could this be the result of evolutionary processes?

This is more or less my view.

eudaimonia,

Mark

AV1611VET · Sep 13, 2006

BVZ said:
You have not answered the question.

If the soul houses (and is the source of) emotions, how does alcohol, which changes the chemistry of the brain, affect emotions?

I don't know.

Oncedeceived · Sep 13, 2006

IMHO, our mind is somewhat like a transmitter. It works on a physical plane. IF it is damaged, it can and does change our "self" on the physical plane. So alchohol, brain damage, and other physical mind altering mechanisms can affect the physical plane while not affecting the inner soul. When a human dies and is taken out of the physical plane the soul is perfected and becomes "perfect" in the spiritual plane. So those who have had physical problems on the physical plane no longer suffer these impairments.

Grummpy · Sep 13, 2006

AV1611VET

The soul houses the mind, the will, and the emotions

Oncedeceived

IMHO, our mind is somewhat like a transmitter. It works on a physical plane. IF it is damaged, it can and does change our "self" on the physical plane. So alchohol, brain damage, and other physical mind altering mechanisms can affect the physical plane while not affecting the inner soul. When a human dies and is taken out of the physical plane the soul is perfected and becomes "perfect" in the spiritual plane. So those who have had physical problems on the physical plane no longer suffer these impairments.

I take it then, that you are Dualists?

The mind(or soul, "Ghost in the Machine...another seperate entity who sits in supervision of the physical body.) is made up of something different than the physical brain. Please describe the attributes of that different stuff. Can it be measured or detected?

By the way, when I speak of mind I am talking about that concious "I" we all experience, The part that will raise your arm if I ask you to do so(and you are in a cooperative mood). Descartes describes awareness(mind) in the phrase "I think therefore, I am!" (Though, as a materialist I think he got it backwards, it should be "I am, therefore I can think!").

I am heading towards a demonstration of why and how I think man (and mammals, birds and cepalopods(Cuttlefish, octopi) evolved their great intellects(in relationship to all other life). It has to do with the unique structure of our brains(mammals at least) that has evolved over the reptilion brain and Medulla Oblongata. I really don't want to dump all of it at once, bad form. Any body interested?
Grumpy

Hydra009 · Sep 13, 2006

AV1611VET said:
Huh?

What is referred to as a "skull"?

The mind or the soul?

Either way, the skull is part of the body, as it deteriorates after death.

Is this clearer?

"The ___ houses the mind, the will, and the emotions" - answer: skull, not soul.

The scond part was a joke, which stated that prior to modern science, the word soul was just a synonymn for the skull or brain, implying that ancient civilizations never actually ever believed in a magical, invisible vessel for one's thoughts/personality.

Mind: emergent property or "Ghost in the machine"?

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