Message for Atheists

I_are_sceptical said:

So Siddhartha was special, stands above other Buddhas?

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He stands _apart_ from _most_ (not all) other buddhas. He's not the only sammasambuddha to have lived, nor will he be the last, according to tradition. And although being a sammasambuddha is the "noblest" of the three paths, none of them are considered "better" or "worse".

urnotme said:

It was a long time ago in a different thread. I looked and maybe I misread the post. Noself did call him Lord Buddha though.. Maybe Lord isn't meant to connote divinity though.

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That was probably it. "Lord" is a commonly used title for the Buddha, but is not meant to imply any sort of divinity. It's closer to the british use than the Jesus use.

Aradia said:

He stands _apart_ from _most_ (not all) other buddhas.

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I suppose I could guess who other Buddhas might be, but what names would be on your list?

I_are_sceptical said:

I suppose I could guess who other Buddhas might be, but what names would be on your list?

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I don't know. I haven't given it much thought, since it doesn't really affect me much. *shrug*

EnemyIsHate said:

Sorry, I don't agree with you.
Have a look at this information
http://www.geocities.com/chiniquy/Hitler.html
or here if you think i just made this up
http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.geocities.com/chiniquy/Hitler.html



May the Lord bless you and keep you.
May the Lord let his face shine on you and be gracious to you.
May the Lord uncover his face to you and bring you peace.

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All I meant was he was born catholic. That doesn't mean he followed the church but his mother was a catholic.

Isn't it curious how we automatically inflict or bless, (depending on how you see it,) our religion of birth upon our children? We don't say that they are democrats, or conservatives, according to parents' political views... why then insist they be automaticlly subjected to a specific religion? Why not permit them, at the age of sixteen, to make up their own minds, after open education and research, which God they'll follow, just as they have to make up their own minds, after open education and research, which politician to vote for?

Namaste I are sceptical,

thank you for the post.

I_are_sceptical said:

I suppose I could guess who other Buddhas might be, but what names would be on your list?

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it would be difficult to guess at these beings, in my view.

Generally speaking, Buddhists take a few different approaches with regards to previous Buddhas. by and large, we simply talk about the most recent four Buddhas who had attained Annutara Samyak Sambodhi. however, there have been many, many other Buddhas which have arisen, both of the Annutara Samyak Sambodhi and the Annutara Samyak sorts.

in one of the Suttas, Buddha Shakyamuni gives a list of over 500 Solitary Realizers.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn-116-pt0.html#pacceka

nevertheless, according to the Atanatiya Sutta; the most recent previous Buddhas are:

Buddha Vipassi

Buddha Sikhi

Buddha Vessabhu

Buddha Kakusanda

Buddha Konagamana

Buddha Kassapa

Buddha Shakyamuni

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn-32-pt0.html

as a note, Buddha Dipankara predicted the arising of Buddha Kassapa who then predicted the arising of Buddha Shakyamuni who, in turn, has predicted the arising of Buddha Maitreya.

in terms of practice this listing isn't of much relevance nor, for that matter, the acceptance of previous Buddhas. generally speaking, this is more of an academic pursuit rather than a part of the practice lineages. that being said, there are some schools which regularly include the previous Buddhas in their practice.

metta,

~v

EnemyIsHate said:

Here is small statement from

http://www.unitypublishing.com/Apparitions/FatimaBook.html



By 1981 - 73% of the world was Communist

170 million had died since Fatima


We all commit sin, I'm not blaming anyone in this post, to sin is part of our human nature, but some atheist forget that over the past century they have committed more atrocities than all the other religions together, people like Stalin, Mao, Hitler and many others were in fact all atheists...

Thank GOD these people have been stopped.

I expect a lot of people that read this and point out where the Roman Catholic Church has gone wrong…

So before it starts here is my response…

The Roman catholic church has had it’s share of atrocities and heresies in the past and even presently, but the church have acknowledge them, but still this does not mean that GOD does not exist, GOD gave us 10 commandments that we must keep, GOD right now is keeping the evil spirits who wonder trough this world from getting to you and me, the bible has the word for your salvation, so when people say this or that about the church this does not mean that the actions of individuals can be blamed on the word of GOD, because most likely the actions of those individuals broke the ten commandments, unless they repent before they die then they will be on a state of mortal sin and as far as I understand there is only place for those in a state of mortal sin.


I’m not going to answer to any argument which may arise from this post, as the only reason I posted this, was to point out to some atheists the facts which those people of faith have open their eyes and hearts, even if we do not agreed what may be right or wrong. In fact the bible does tell us to not bother preaching to gentiles (atheists) but go after those who have gone in the wrong direction from the word of GOD.




May the Lord bless you and keep you.
May the Lord let his face shine on you and be gracious to you.
May the Lord uncover his face to you and bring you peace.

============================================

Due to some response I have received further down in this discussion the above link may have to be removed, neverless the point I made about how many millions of people who died during the past century which were not related to people of relegious faith still stands.

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To this being, the error is believing that anyone is incapable of committing evil. As they say, "We have seen the enemy and it is us." Or, as that wonderful Harry Potter character barks "Constant vigilance!" Despots succeed because people support them. One crazy person cannot do as much damage alone.

Metta,
ZW

Zen_Woof said:

Despots succeed because people support them. One crazy person cannot do as much damage alone.

Metta,
ZW

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"No amount of common sense is of any use or value, nor will it prevail, against a piece of utter lunacy that is currently in fashion....."

This was said about platform heels, click-clack balls and skateboards....
you could just as well apply it to some folks makin' headlines.....

vajradhara said:

the most recent previous Buddhas are: Vipassi, Sikhi, Vessabhu, Kakusanda, Konagamana, Kassapa, Shakyamuni

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They are noted for Their holiness, but only Shakyamuni taught others, which resulted in an organized religion, is that correct?

in terms of practice this listing isn't of much relevance

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Exactly what IS relevant? The Dharma, perhaps?

Namaste I are sceptical,

thank you for the post.

I_are_sceptical said:

They are noted for Their holiness, but only Shakyamuni taught others, which resulted in an organized religion, is that correct?

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no, that is not correct.

All Buddhas of the three times and ten directions teach the same Dharma. Buddha Shakyamuni relates how he learned the Dharma from Buddha Dipankara and, when he had taken rebirth during the arising of Buddha Kassapa, it was this Buddha who predicted that his next rebirth would be as the Buddha Shakyamuni.

Exactly what IS relevant? The Dharma, perhaps?

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the Dharma is one of the Three Jewels in Buddhism, so yes, this is quite important.

in terms of practice, it is not necessary to hold any particular view, unless ones school has a set of such.. which may be the case, especially for novice Buddhists. we are to find wise companions to help us train.

metta,

~v

vajradhara said:

Buddha Shakyamuni relates how he learned the Dharma from Buddha Dipankara

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Who else learned it from Buddha Dipankara?

in terms of practice, it is not necessary to hold any particular view

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Any particular view of what?

EnemyIsHate said:

By 1981 - 73% of the world was Communist

170 million had died since Fatima

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I suspect more people have been killed, tortured, oppressed, and abused in the name of god(s) through out history than all atheist regimes combined.

However, we must judge theism and atheism based on their own merits. I'm an agnostic when it comes to the existence of god like super-beings in general, but I am convinced that revealed religions, e.g. Abrahamic faiths, are entirely man made.

Humans have been creating, worshipping, killing for, and even dying for all kinds of gods all throughout human history. Many of these once omnipotent rulers of the seen and unseen universe have now become tourist attractions and are refered to by the M-word: Mythology. It seems to me that humans have had both the motive and the opportunity to create god as we know it today. I also think today's religions will eventually go down the same road as many other faiths that came before them. But religions come and go on time scales that are much longer than human life, and this is why to average human being gods seem to be eternal and lasting.

Most religions suffer from to problems. First, they are obsessed with traditions and can't let go of the past. This is a problem because we live in a dynamic and ever changing world where traditions are becoming obsolete at every turn. This is why religions have to cherry pick their teaching and emphasize some while sweeping the rest under the carpet.

The other problem with most religions is that they see the world in black and white and absolute terms. This is a problem because we live in grey world where there are not any absolutes. Rather, life is all about moderation and finding the right balance in what we do. It is also about avoiding extremes and going too far in what we do and what we believe.


MB.

I_are_sceptical said:

Who else learned it from Buddha Dipankara?

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Unfortunately, for any future generations to know who has or has not learned the dhamma, that information must be passed down, either orally or through written communication. But it's not important enough to do so, and isn't really practical. It's like asking who heard Jesus' sermons. Well... uhhh... a lot of folks. Is it important to know who heard Jesus' sermons? Is it important to know who heard Siddhartha's sermons? Not really. The teachings themselves are what's important; they are what need to be passed down.

Now, we do know who some of Siddartha's "disciples" were, as some are mentioned in the pali tipitaka. However, a future sammasambuddha can't come around again until the dhamma has been lost, and the need arises for it to be taught again. Thus, Buddha Maitreya (the "future buddha") won't come until buddhism as we know it has disappeared. That means, of course, that the record of Siddhartha's disciples will also have disappeared. The same has happened for all previous sammasambuddhas.

I_are_sceptical said:

Any particular view of what?

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I could probably answer this for him, but I'll let vajradhara do it himself.


PS--> vajradhara, good to see you and Zen_Woof still here on CF! Been a while since I've checked in...

Buddhism is at once an extemely simple Religion to follow, but is swathed and layered in many complexities. Depending on how deeply a Buddhist wishes to take their practise, one can learn many different things through study, retreats, meditation and singular determined devotion.

But a Buddhist never stops questioning.
For my humble part, I know for myself, (having studied them intensely) that the Four Noble Truths resonate with me....
This was the Buddha's first lesson, in Deer Park.
He further expounded the aspects of the Eightfold Path, which I have further studied, am still studying and will doubtless continue to implement and learn about throughout my life.
The Buddha Lived this Path every day of his rmaining years.
His last lesson, before dying, was on the Eightfold path....
Everything in between can be condensed, into this eightfold Path. every word he uttered, every sutra, ever lesson, ever example, has it's roots and foundations in this eightfold Path.

And the one Sutra every Buddhist eventually becomes aware of, is the Kalama Sutra, which encourages the Pilgrim - the Practitioner - the Seeker - to leave no stone unturned, in their search for the Truth.
To Question everything. To examine, dissect; search and peruse everything in it's infinitessimal detail, until the seeker is satisfied.
And if, no matter how much research is done, the question is inponderable - then leave it. Allow it to be a mystery and regard it in silence. Neither 'yes' or 'no', but permit 'who knows?' to be sufficient.
And respect those who feel they have found a concrete answer, to the same question, for themselves.

But the above comes under the title of 'View'.
Because no matter how much any Christian insists that God exists - and I know this is a strong subject - no matter how deeply in their heart they are convinced of an omnipotent Deity, no matter how firmly they believe God has found anchorage in their lives - I cannot believe such a being exisits.
There is not sufficient tangible proof for me to believe it.
There is evidence But it is not proof.
There is the belief of the believer. But this is not proof, this is Faith.
it is a quite different thing.

But I firmly, sincerely and deeply respect anyone who does believe in God.
I respect their devotion and their sincerity.
I have no doubt as to the Blessedness and sacredness of their Belief.
And I would never presume to attempt to convince them otherwise.

However:
I expect nothing less from them.

Aradia said:

PS--> vajradhara, good to see you and Zen_Woof still here on CF! Been a while since I've checked in...

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Nice to see you too! I hope all is well.

Metta,
ZW

Namaste I are sceptical,

thank you for the post.

I_are_sceptical said:

Who else learned it from Buddha Dipankara?

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a whole host of beings. Buddha Shakyamuni didn't really go into all the details of every sentient being who practiced since his audience was interacting with him directly. nevertheless, in the first referenced link there is a rather long listing of many of the beings that practiced under the guidance of the previous Buddhas.

Any particular view of what?

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of anything, really.

generally speaking, the core aspects of the Buddhist paradigm can be condensed into what we call the Four Noble Truths and the Noble Eightfold Path. to paraphrase a Jewish scholar; all the rest is commentary

of course, there is a lot of commentary and, if you are a being which is so inclined, there is quite a wealth of material to study. if, however, you are a being which is, say, more interested in the practice, nothing more needs to be understood outside of the Four Noble Truths and the Noble Eightfold Path.

for my own case, i am of the mental disposition to study much of the commentary material.

now, as i mentioned, some schools will tend to pick certain Suttas/Sutras which their practice is centered around, i.e. the Lotus Sutra or the Diamond Sutra et al. within the scope of those individual schools, they may require additional knowledge above and beyond the Four Noble Truths and the Noble Eightfold Path.

if you have a real interest in Buddha Dharma, i would highly encourage you to visit http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/basic-guide.htm

metta,

~vhttp://www.buddhanet.net

Namaste Aradia,

thank you for the post.

good to see you back as well i hope you've been well.

Aradia said:

Is it important to know who heard Siddhartha's sermons? Not really. The teachings themselves are what's important; they are what need to be passed down.

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i absolutely agree. i suppose that, from a very technical point of view, we could even go so far as to say that the teachings, themselves, are not what is most important, the Dharma is. it is through the teachings, however, that most beings can discover and approach the Dharma.

for all practical purposes, they seem functionally equilivent.


metta,

~v

vajradhara said:

Namaste Aradia,

thank you for the post.

good to see you back as well i hope you've been well.

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Thanks for the welcome, vaj and ZW. Been doing pretty well, but have been enormously busy this past year or so, between work, building kayaks, rock climbing... and getting married! Woohoo! Still not a perfect buddhist by any stretch of the imagination, but I continue to become more mindful as time goes by.

vajradhara said:

i absolutely agree. i suppose that, from a very technical point of view, we could even go so far as to say that the teachings, themselves, are not what is most important, the Dharma is. it is through the teachings, however, that most beings can discover and approach the Dharma.

for all practical purposes, they seem functionally equilivent.

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True indeed. I've continued trying to mentally separate myself from the "buddhist" label, and what you've written describes it exactly. It's not so much the teachings, but the dhamma, apart from any label, that really matters. The more I discuss religion with those of other faiths, the more it helps me to rise above the unnecessary labels and see the dhamma for what it really is... and isn't... and both is and isn't... and neither is nor isn't... hehehehe.

Okay, thank you all.