Mental or Material ?

twinc · Apr 24, 2013

so what are we to accept - is it a Mind over matter or a Matter over mind world we live in - is it not a fact that we have individual brains but mind is common to all - is it not true that individual brains die but mind survives - twinc

Davian · Apr 24, 2013

twinc said:
so what are we to accept - is it a Mind over matter or a Matter over mind world we live in - is it not a fact that we have individual brains but mind is common to all -

This "we" that you speak for - you do not have individual brains? Do you all share the one?

twinc said:
is it not true that individual brains die but mind survives - twinc

It is not true that a rainbow is just refracted sunlight but there is actually a pot of gold at each end.

twinc · Apr 24, 2013

Davian said:
This "we" that you speak for - you do not have individual brains? Do you all share the one?

It is not true that a rainbow is just refracted sunlight but there is actually a pot of gold at each end.

you do not show the thousands of "No God" fiction textbooks available in thousands of schools and elsewhere worldwide - so how can bias and prejudice be put aside - anyway fiction is fiction but how can two wrongs be right - twinc

Davian · Apr 24, 2013

twinc said:
you do not show the thousands of "No God" fiction textbooks available in thousands of schools and elsewhere worldwide

Name one.

twinc said:
- so how can bias and prejudice be put aside

Bias against works of fiction?

twinc said:
- anyway fiction is fiction but how can two wrongs be right - twinc

Two wrongs are still wrong.

Ana the Ist · Apr 24, 2013

twinc said:
so what are we to accept - is it a Mind over matter or a Matter over mind world we live in - is it not a fact that we have individual brains but mind is common to all - is it not true that individual brains die but mind survives - twinc

No...and no. Neither of those are true. Seems odd to be making such assertions without backing them up...are you simply looking for a shouting match or do you honestly seek truth?

twinc · Apr 24, 2013

Ana the Ist said:
No...and no. Neither of those are true. Seems odd to be making such assertions without backing them up...are you simply looking for a shouting match or do you honestly seek truth?

it seems you are - so when any individual brain dies universal mind dies as well - brains have come and gone but mind is still with us - hypnotism is a good example of mind over matter etc - twinc

Eudaimonist · Apr 24, 2013

twinc said:
so what are we to accept - is it a Mind over matter or a Matter over mind world we live in

Neither one. Mind and matter are two aspects of the same entity. Neither is "over" the other.

is it not a fact that we have individual brains but mind is common to all

That is not a fact.

is it not true that individual brains die but mind survives

It is not true, IMV. One's own mental processes do not survive the death of one's own brain. It may be that the mental processes of other people survive one's own personal death, but I think it is misleading to say that "mind survives" because I do not view it as a fact that there is any "universal mind".

eudaimonia,

Mark

quatona · Apr 24, 2013

twinc said:
so what are we to accept - is it a Mind over matter or a Matter over mind world we live in

I fail too see how this is a question of "...over...".

- is it not a fact that we have individual brains but mind is common to all

Well, I am observing a lot of matter that doesn´t appear to have a mind.

- is it not true that individual brains die but mind survives -

As far as I can tell we can observe how a certain manifestation of matter transforms into another.
As far as I can tell we haven´t observed any connection between a supposedly "previous" mind and a "follow-up" mind. So, no, I fail to see how your assertion has any merits.
Also, we haven´t seen any mind being there without there being matter.
Thus, everything points to the assumption that mind depends on there being matter, but the existence of matter doesn´t depend on the existence of mind.

That said, the products of my mind are way more important to me than matter is (since my mind interpretes matter in the way it´s useful to me). Thus, in this respect, it´s "mind over matter" for me.

twinc · Apr 24, 2013

Eudaimonist said:
Neither one. Mind and matter are two aspects of the same entity. Neither is "over" the other.

That is not a fact.

It is not true, IMV. One's own mental processes do not survive the death of one's own brain. It may be that the mental processes of other people survive one's own personal death, but I think it is misleading to say that "mind survives" because I do not view it as a fact that there is any "universal mind".

eudaimonia,

Mark

seems for some reason unknown some are cofused and are out to confuse others as regards brain and mind and this is why a Dictionary should be consulted especially an Oxford dictionary - twinc

Eudaimonist · Apr 25, 2013

twinc said:
seems for some reason unknown some are cofused and are out to confuse others as regards brain and mind and this is why a Dictionary should be consulted especially an Oxford dictionary - twinc

I doubt that a dictionary will help us solve any philosophical issues, but feel free to copy and paste the relevant dictionary definitions here.

eudaimonia,

Mark

twinc · Apr 25, 2013

Eudaimonist said:
I doubt that a dictionary will help us solve any philosophical issues, but feel free to copy and paste the relevant dictionary definitions here.

eudaimonia,

Mark

just look it up and keep it to yourself as no one else seems to want to know anyway - twinc

Eudaimonist · Apr 25, 2013

twinc said:
just look it up and keep it to yourself as no one else seems to want to know anyway - twinc

I know clearly what I mean by such terms and mind, brain, and matter, and the dictionary doesn't tell me that I'm using the terms in the wrong way. I'm not at all confused on the subject.

For instance, from the Oxford Dictionary:

Definition of mind
noun

1the element of a person that enables them to be aware of the world and their experiences, to think, and to feel; the faculty of consciousness and thought:a lot of thoughts ran through my mind

2a persons ability to think and reason; the intellect:his keen mind
a persons memory:the companys name slips my mind
a particular way of thinking, influenced by a persons profession or environment:he had a deep contempt for the bureaucratic mind
a person identified with their intellectual faculties:he was one of the greatest minds of his time

3a persons attention:employees should keep their minds on the job
a persons will or determination to achieve something:anyone can slim if they set their mind to it

Yep, that's what I had meant, especially (1) and (2a). Now what?

eudaimonia,

Mark

twinc · Apr 25, 2013

Eudaimonist said:
I know clearly what I mean by such terms and mind, brain, and matter, and the dictionary doesn't tell me that I'm using the terms in the wrong way. I'm not at all confused on the subject.

For instance, from the Oxford Dictionary:

Definition of mind
noun

1the element of a person that enables them to be aware of the world and their experiences, to think, and to feel; the faculty of consciousness and thought:a lot of thoughts ran through my mind

2a persons ability to think and reason; the intellect:his keen mind

a persons memory:the companys name slips my mind

a particular way of thinking, influenced by a persons profession or environment:he had a deep contempt for the bureaucratic mind

a person identified with their intellectual faculties:he was one of the greatest minds of his time

3a persons attention:employees should keep their minds on the job

a persons will or determination to achieve something:anyone can slim if they set their mind to it

Yep, that's what I had meant, especially (1) and (2a). Now what?

eudaimonia,

Mark

did you or your brain think all the thoughts that ran through your mind - brain is material and can be produced to be seen,handled and operated on etc - twinc

Eudaimonist · Apr 25, 2013

twinc said:
did you or your brain think all the thoughts that ran through your mind - brain is material and can be produced to be seen,handled and operated on etc - twinc

The functioning of my brain is "me".
"I" am the functioning of my brain.

I realize that my brain has material properties. So what?

eudaimonia,

Mark

twinc · Apr 25, 2013

Eudaimonist said:
The functioning of my brain is "me".
"I" am the functioning of my brain.

I realize that my brain has material properties. So what?

eudaimonia,

Mark

how about your mind does that have material properties that can be seen,handled and operated on etc - twinc

Eudaimonist · Apr 26, 2013

twinc said:
how about your mind does that have material properties that can be seen,handled and operated on etc - twinc

The mind is another aspect of brain function.

Even if introspectively (in "inward" mental experience) it does not appear to have material properties, extrospectively (in "outward" sensory experience) its material properties are those of the brain. Just because when you use your eyes you see a brain, that doesn't mean that you aren't looking at what is responsible for the subjective experience of a mind.

This has had great support in science, where influencing the brain physically (such as with drugs) causes changes in the subjective experience of the individual.

twinc, you might find this article of interest. It is closely related to my views on the mind-body relation.

A Dual-Aspect Approach to the Mind-Body Problem

Like Roger Bissell, I think that "a mental process is actually a physical process", though not in the reductive sense that mental processes are "nothing but physical brain processes", since they have mental properties as well.

eudaimonia,

Mark

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