medical students boycotting lectures on evolution

Tiberius said:

You've given nothing.

I asked for proof that someone can say, "Dear God, I pray in your name that Mount Everest will move to the Australian outback, amen" and the mountain will move.

And rather than give me even the smallest shred of evidence, you claim that since your stories say that Jesus walked on water, healed the sick and withered a tree, that mountains MUST be able to move due to prayers. Your logic is non-existent.

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Pardon me but, you want God to perform a miracle in present time where everyone views it rendering Free Will dead? No, in Reality God isn't going to break free will.

2, See that picture below in my signature? He Created you.

SavedByChrist94 said:

Pardon me but, you want God to perform a miracle in present time where everyone views it rendering Free Will dead? No, in Reality God isn't going to break free will.

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Are you really saying that God does not make miracles in present time?

SavedByChrist94 said:

2, See that picture below in my signature? He Created you.

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According to whom? And by the way, that "picture" in your signature might not even be of Jesus.

SavedByChrist94 said:

Pardon me but, you want God to perform a miracle in present time where everyone views it rendering Free Will dead? No, in Reality God isn't going to break free will.

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Not even in the most twisted definitions of free will I have come across, would God performing render it "dead". The ability to make a choice is not influence by viewing a miracle. It is made easier, but having an easier choice does not mean there is no free will.

2, See that picture below in my signature? He Created you.

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There is no evidence whatsoever that he did.

SavedByChrist94 said:

Pardon me but, you want God to perform a miracle in present time where everyone views it rendering Free Will dead? No, in Reality God isn't going to break free will.

2, See that picture below in my signature? He Created you.

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If miracles render free will dead, why did he EVER perform them?

If miracles render free will dead, how could the demons rebel?

SavedByChrist94 said:

Pardon me but, you want God to perform a miracle in present time where everyone views it rendering Free Will dead? No, in Reality God isn't going to break free will.

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Why would it render free will dead now, but it didn't destroy it before?

Tiberius said:

Religious faith? No. I do not believe there is a God out there, or anywhere for that matter.

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We have a picture of Him(look at my signature) you're in denial.

But my beliefs are completely irrelevant. There is, surely, someone out there who does have faith as a grain of a mustard seed. In all likelihood, many such people. So why can't they pray for the mount of Olives to go and throw itself into the sea?[/QUOTE]

That was figuratively, Basically Jesus Christ says that with God all things are possible, which they are, and in order to have what you want you must pray, He will also not break free will,

25 “Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father. 26 In that day you will ask in my name. I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf. 27 No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God. 28 I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.

Also kid, you have no faith, you want your prayers answered? Then get The First Gift of The Holy Spirit by Accepting Jesus Christ into your life, then you get your prayers, answered, and not condescending ones to test Him, that's some george carlin crap(The guy was a phoney, God hater, wasn't funny, wasn't smart and suckered me before I was Saved, don't like him)

SavedByChrist94 said:

We have a picture of Him(look at my signature) you're in denial.

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No, you don't. Three different and independent laboratories consistently dated your "picture" to 1260 to 1390 AD.

Radiocarbon dating of the Shroud of Turin

Of all of the evidence presented to support the existence of God, this "picture" is the weakest.

CabVet said:

No, you don't. Three different and independent laboratories consistently dated your "picture" to 1260 to 1390 AD.

Radiocarbon dating of the Shroud of Turin

Of all of the evidence presented for the existence of God, this "picture" is the weakest.

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Actually I do, All Scientific Data Proves otherwise. the carbon testing is false.(Burst of UV Light from Jesus Christ body Changed The fiber)

http://blogcritics.org/scitech/article/scientists-determine-the-shroud-of-turin/

http://www.garyhabermas.com/articles/antonacci_resurrection-of-shroud-foundation_04-05-2012.htm

Also the carbon testing result is Automatically false due to all the other substantial evidence.

your argument is the equivalent of having clear video proof that oj simpson is the killer, however since the tape isn't from 1994 it is therefore according to you false.

This has more proof than you can conceive, study it.

SavedByChrist94 said:

Actually I do, All Scientific Data Proves otherwise. the carbon testing is false.(Burst of UV Light from Jesus Christ body Changed The fiber)

Scientists Determine The Shroud of Turin is Not a Fake - Blogcritics Sci/Tech

The Late Twentieth-Century Resurgence of Naturalistic Responses to Jesus' Resurrection

Also the carbon testing result is Automatically false due to all the other substantial evidence.

your argument is the equivalent of having clear video proof that oj simpson is the killer, however since the tape isn't from 1994 it is therefore according to you false.

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Yeah, keep dreaming and avoiding the other questions.

CabVet said:

Yeah, keep dreaming and avoiding the other questions.

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you're dreaming, look what science says,

Scientists Determine The Shroud of Turin is Not a Fake - Blogcritics Sci/Tech

The Late Twentieth-Century Resurgence of Naturalistic Responses to Jesus' Resurrection

CabVet said:

Yeah, keep dreaming and avoiding the other questions.

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Also since your Signature's Logic bothers me I'll destroy it.

""I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours" Stephen H. Roberts"

Thing is an "atheist" claims to "lack" belief in Deity in general. I as a Christian do not deny that a Deity exist, I only deny false people who claim to be Deities, so yes, no one who believes in The Bible is an "atheist" to anyone else, we believe in God, we just don't believe in posers.

The logic of your argument is analogous to someone who believes food exists and that poison isn't food, then some fool comes around who doesn't believe food exists and claims that the person who believes in food just believes in one less type of food, no to that fool I'd say we believe in All Food, Food in general, we just don't believe poison is food.

Better change that signature of yours cabvet

SavedByChrist94 said:

you're dreaming, look what science says,

Scientists Determine The Shroud of Turin is Not a Fake - Blogcritics Sci/Tech

The Late Twentieth-Century Resurgence of Naturalistic Responses to Jesus' Resurrection

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Science?
That's two links. One to a blog (not really the best place to look for scientific literature or results) and the other to something written by the president of The Resurrection of the Shroud Foundation.

Try again.

Elendur said:

Science?
That's two links. One to a blog (not really the best place to look for scientific literature or results) and the other to something written by the president of The Resurrection of the Shroud Foundation.

Try again.

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Actually read the articles, don't hide, if you read the Scientific Facts they present you wouldn't have replied like this. doesn't matter if king kong wrote it, Science is Science.

SavedByChrist94 said:

Actually read the articles, don't hide, if you read the Scientific Facts they present you wouldn't have replied like this. doesn't matter if king kong wrote it, Science is Science.

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I've read it, twice now, I replied like that and would reply like that again.
You're correct, however, about one thing. It doesn't matter who writes it, science is science (though I don't understand why you put those capital letters there).

The first link cites no scientific facts. The second link is a mess of articles citing articles and so forth.

You might be interested in this link:
Shroud of Turin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Elendur said:

I've read it, twice now, I replied like that and would reply like that again.
You're correct, however, about one thing. It doesn't matter who writes it, science is science (though I don't understand why you put those capital letters there).

The first link cites no scientific facts. The second link is a mess of articles citing articles and so forth.

You might be interested in this link:
Shroud of Turin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Copy and Paste it is,

SCIENTIFIC TESTING OF RELIGIOUS OBJECTS:
by Mark Antonacci, President
The Resurrection of the Shroud Foundation
April 5, 2012
Scientific research on the Shroud of Turin has unlimited potential. This burial cloth, approximately 14 feet 3 inches long and 3 feet 7 inches wide (4.34m x 1.10m), actually contains unique and sophisticated evidence throughout every location on the linen. All of this evidence is objective and independent coming from numerous branches of the fields of science, medicine and archaeology. This evidence actually began to accumulate at the dawn of the 20th century with the initial application of modern scientific technology to the Shroud. Yet, as scientific technology advanced and was applied to this burial garment, it yielded far greater amounts of evidence that was not just unprecedented, but was unfakable. This evidence has been acquired by some of the finest scientists from some of the most prestigious institutions in the world and continues to accumulate to this day. Thousands of scientific tests and experiments have now been performed on the Shroud and on various samples removed from it that yield a remarkably consistent set of evidence. In fact, only one scientific test result among thousands is inconsistent with the Shroud being the burial garment of the historical Jesus Christ.

Since an erroneous result is misleading, it is much worse than no result at all, especially if this result is perceived as exclusive. For almost the last quarter of a century the Shroud’s medieval radiocarbon dating has caused all of the sophisticated and corroborating evidence indicating the cloth’s authenticity to be ignored by the vast majority of people throughout the world. If this one aberrant result was scientifically refuted it would open thousands of scientific test results, along with hundreds of medical and forensic findings for the world to analyze. The Resurrection of the Shroud Foundation, a tax exempt, non-profit corporation, has been sponsoring scientific tests and experiments that could stunningly bring about such a result. These tests and experiments would not only refute the Shroud’s medieval radiocarbon dating, but would allow scientists to calculate the actual age of the cloth.

If the tests and experiments sponsored by our non-profit corporation only refuted the Shroud’s radiocarbon dating results, they would have enormous historical value. Yet these tests and experiments in combination with all the previous scientific and medical examinations would also indicate that an unprecedented, miraculous event occurred to Jesus’ dead body. Decades of scientific and medical analyses consistently indicates that the Shroud’s frontal and dorsal body images resulted from radiation. Our previously sponsored research demonstrates that one particular form, particle radiation, not only creates C-14 isotopes within the molecular structure of linen, but that this additional C-14 will not be removed by stringent pretreatment cleanings, which routinely occur prior to radiocarbon dating. Nor is it removed by aging or by the application of heat up to temperatures that would discolor the cloth. Moreover, particle radiation would create new isotopes that virtually do not exist in nature. These new isotopes would also be created within the cellular or molecular structure of the Shroud’s linen. These new isotopes can only be created by particle radiation. Their presence above their infinitesimally small natural levels would not only demonstrate the Shroud was irradiated with particle radiation, but that many additional C-14 isotopes were necessarily created and still remain within the linen today. This would necessarily invalidate the Shroud’s radiocarbon dating.

Many other medical and scientific findings from the Shroud clearly demonstrate that it wrapped a tortured, crucified corpse, whose unprecedented frontal and dorsal body images resulted from radiation. This scientific and medical evidence also shows that the source of this radiation was necessarily the length, width and even depth of the dead body wrapped within this burial shroud. The new tests and experiments along with prior scientific, medical and archaeological results would prove that after Jesus incurred all of the wounds of the passion, and was crucified, killed and buried in Jerusalem, his corpse gave off particle radiation while it was wrapped in his burial garment. This event is not only consistent with the resurrection of Jesus Christ, but it left unfakable evidence of its occurrence throughout the cloth. In addition, by encoding unprecedented and unfakable frontal and dorsal body images that developed over time, this event also left sophisticated scientific and medical evidence for every element of the passion, crucifixion, death, burial and resurrection of the historical Jesus Christ throughout the full-length images on the Shroud.

This event could not possibly have occurred naturally or by any human endeavor in any century. Scientists could not begin to duplicate such an event today, nor can they duplicate the Shroud’s body images and blood marks. This sophisticated, unfakable evidence--discovered only by modern technology--could not have been imagined by the colonial or medieval mind, let alone the ancient authors of the Gospels. For the first time in history, objective and independent evidence not only exists for the central tenets of a religion, but for the most significant events in all of history. No other religion has any objective or independent evidence for their central tenets. The modern discovery of this evidence not only enables Christianity to claim that objective and independent evidence exists for its central tenets, but that an extensive amount of such evidence exists. This objective and independent evidence also corroborates the most authentic and reliable sources in all of ancient history. These are the Gospels and New Testament, of course, whose textual accuracy has been corroborated by archaeology, by their consistent rendering in several ancient languages, by the great number of surviving handwritten manuscripts or fragments, and by their closeness to the time of the originals. The actions of the eyewitnesses before and after these critical events also confirm their occurrence. The Shroud already contains an extensive amount of objective and independent evidence indicating that the passion, crucifixion, death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ occurred exactly as described in the Gospels and New Testament. The refutation of the Shroud’s aberrant radiocarbon dating --with the simultaneous proof that particle radiation emanated from the length, width and even depth of Jesus’ dead, tortured and crucified body--will cause people everywhere to study and understand all of this unfakable evidence.

The realization that Christianity has hundreds of irrefutable items of scientific and medical evidence to confirm the central tenets of Christianity and the most critical events in all of history, which are contained in the most reliable and textually attested sources of antiquity, could have unprecedented consequences throughout the world. No other religion has any objective evidence to confirm the central tenets or critical events of their religion, let alone an exhaustive amount of such evidence. Overwhelming, objective evidence--along the lines of a 150 – 0 shutout when compared to any contrary or other view--would impress the listener whether agnostic, atheist or a member of any other religion.

Unfortunately, religion causes, contributes to or is an underlying element in numerous wars and conflicts that are occurring throughout the world. While such wars and conflicts have always occurred throughout history, their numbers are increasing. Furthermore, the means of destruction by the combatants have become alarming. These underlying religious differences and conflicts go back centuries. Wars and conflicts have not and cannot eliminate these differences. Worse yet, they have perpetuated and deepened the differences and hostilities among the combating religions. Overwhelming, objective, and independent evidence for one religion, with the lack of any such evidence for other religions, would allow sectarian combatants throughout the world to end these unnecessary wars and conflicts.

If you would like to support the tests and experiments sponsored by the Resurrection of the Shroud Foundation, please contact

and


Radiocarbon 14 dating of the Shroud of Turin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In 2008 the director of the Oxford Radiocarbon Accelerator Unit, Christopher Ramsey, told the BBC that "With the radiocarbon measurements and with all of the other evidence which we have about the Shroud, there does seem to be a conflict in the interpretation of the different evidence".[79] Ramsey has stressed that he would be surprised if the 1988 tests were shown to be far off, let alone "a thousand years wrong", but said that he would keep an open mind

Problem is, Saved, that the first link, which you have now quoted, cites no specific studies to back up the assertions made. Frankly I doubt the assertion that only one scientific test failed to back up that it is the Burial Shroud of Jesus from the time period indicated, since the Wikipedia article does seem to belie that very statement.

Your blogger is just writing unsubstantiated information. He is no doubt very capable of linking to at least one study of the magnitude of which he is claiming vindication.

And the Wikipedia article has a picture of the full Shroud. It seems odd that Jesus' head would line up so neatly without spacing where the cloth would have to be wrapped over the top, does it not?

Cute Tink said:

Problem is, Saved, that the first link, which you have now quoted, cites no specific studies to back up the assertions made. Frankly I doubt the assertion that only one scientific test failed to back up that it is the Burial Shroud of Jesus from the time period indicated, since the Wikipedia article does seem to belie that very statement.

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Radiocarbon 14 dating of the Shroud of Turin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In 2008 the director of the Oxford Radiocarbon Accelerator Unit, Christopher Ramsey, told the BBC that "With the radiocarbon measurements and with all of the other evidence which we have about the Shroud, there does seem to be a conflict in the interpretation of the different evidence".[79] Ramsey has stressed that he would be surprised if the 1988 tests were shown to be far off, let alone "a thousand years wrong", but said that he would keep an open mind

Cute Tink said:

Your blogger is just writing unsubstantiated information. He is no doubt very capable of linking to at least one study of the magnitude of which he is claiming vindication.

And the Wikipedia article has a picture of the full Shroud. It seems odd that Jesus' head would line up so neatly without spacing where the cloth would have to be wrapped over the top, does it not?

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_voTiCTqv4Q


But lets put the icing on the cake,


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fU1P1du8NCc

SavedByChrist94 said:

Also since your Signature's Logic bothers me I'll destroy it.

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Nice dodge...

How about you answer the questions now?

1. Does God perform miracles in modern times?

2. How does performing a miracle kill free will?

So, Saved, it seems as though the hypothesis for how the image is presented is that when it was created that the Shroud was completely taunt and explanations are being dreamed up for how that could possibly be so. There doesn't seem to be a true explanation given as to how it happened, but more a bunch of unsupported possibilities presented by people struggling with how to explain what would otherwise be a obvious flaw in concept.

If that's enough for you, more power to you. To me, it seems like someone is making a simple situation into a needlessly complex and less believable project. Instead of it looking like a person was wrapped up in a shroud, it looks like someone made an error in design.

SavedByChrist94 said:

Pardon me but, you want God to perform a miracle in present time where everyone views it rendering Free Will dead? No, in Reality God isn't going to break free will.

Click to expand...

That is a very weak argument.

First of all, God had absolutely no problem coming down and showing hard evidence that he exists to the people in the Bible. He also sent the plagues to the Egyptians to show that he was the real God, AND he hardened Pharaoh's heart so he'd keep the Israelites captive. He also sent Jesus who did miracles here and there in front of lots of people and even rose from the dead. And yet you tell me that God doesn't want to do anything that will prove once and for all he exists?

Secondly, in what way does showing evidence constitute a violation of free will? You see evidence all the time of all sorts of things. I can claim that I have a baseball signed by Joe DiMaggio, and you could doubt me and ask that I prove it. If I then claimed that I couldn't show you because it would violate your free will, you'd just think I was lying, wouldn't you? And if I did show you, would you be upset that your free will was violated? Of course not.

Thirdly, if God is really as powerful as people claim, then why can't he prove to me that he exists in such a way as to let me keep my free will?

2, See that picture below in my signature? He Created you.

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You mean the forgery from the middle ages?

SavedByChrist94 said:

We have a picture of Him(look at my signature) you're in denial.

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It's a face on a cloth and it does not fit what the burial shroud of Jesus would have been like.

Turin Shroud is a fake, very short proof - YouTube

That was figuratively, Basically Jesus Christ says that with God all things are possible, which they are, and in order to have what you want you must pray, He will also not break free will,

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Why not? He did it before...

25 “Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father. 26 In that day you will ask in my name. I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf. 27 No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God. 28 I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father.

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Do you really think that quoting a book I don't believe is going to convince me of anything?

Also kid, you have no faith, you want your prayers answered? Then get The First Gift of The Holy Spirit by Accepting Jesus Christ into your life, then you get your prayers, answered, and not condescending ones to test Him, that's some george carlin crap(The guy was a phoney, God hater, wasn't funny, wasn't smart and suckered me before I was Saved, don't like him)

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Do you have faith?