Mary

Achichem · Sep 15, 2003

This is an honest question for Catholics,

You think Mary went to Ephesus, correct?

Now I ask you who was the Pagan god of that city?
The answer is Dina (a pagan Mother goddess)

Now, we also know they made a lot of statues there in Ephesus for their goddess Dina (the temple of Dina, was marvel of the ancient world). We also know they were very unhappy about Christianity because they believed it was going to put them out of the job (mob in acts).

So now I ask you, are you really not in the slightest suspicious that the mother Mary is not at all so big because of this fact?

I look forward to hear your reply,
God bless,
DaTsar

Godzman · Sep 15, 2003

Acceptance said:
What I want to know is where in the bible does it say that we shouldn't ask Mary and the Saints for intercession? If you believe the bible is the only source of Truth (even though when it was compiled by the Catholic church, it was acknowledged that it was not) than the burdan of proof lies on you. Please list verses.

wrong it was compiled by the church, before Catholic teaching were led astray, and in fact it was overwhemingly used by all Christians not just catholics, that is a term that was used to fend of Gnosticism, well it did, and then the Church became corrupt and filled with to much power, and we had various reformation before the great one.

ten-k · Sep 15, 2003

1Tim.2:5
For there is one 'God' and one 'Mediator'
between God and men,
the man 'Christ Jesus'. amen

Aaron-Aggie · Sep 15, 2003

Godzman said:
wrong it was compiled by the church, before Catholic teaching were led astray, and in fact it was overwhemingly used by all Christians not just catholics, that is a term that was used to fend of Gnosticism, well it did, and then the Church became corrupt and filled with to much power, and we had various reformation before the great one.

Source or opinion?

Godzman · Sep 15, 2003

Aaron-Aggie said:
Source or opinion?

well the Gnosticism part is true and most educated catholic people will tell you that, if you look at the early Christians, none of them prayed to the saints or to mary, never mentioned in the bible, praying with them is fine, praying to them is wrong, and the RCC may deny it but that is what they do.

The corrupt and filled with power was my opinion, but look at some of the leaders before the Great reformation. Priests sleeping around, Popes having illegitamite children, I will post research and historical evidence here in a little bit, I need to do some reasearch on that right now.

JeffreyLloyd · Sep 15, 2003

Godzman said:
JeffreyLloyd said:

John 19:26 - Jesus makes Mary the Mother of us all as He dies on the Cross by saying "behold your mother." Jesus did not say "John, behold your mother" because he gave Mary to all of us, his beloved disciples. All the words that Jesus spoke on Cross had a divine purpose. Jesus was not just telling John to take care of his mother.

Click to expand...

it is clear if you read both 26 and 27 that he is talking to John. Not to us, his mother was important to us. Must we exalt Mary, who was not exalted above anybody, yet was there among the disciples at pentecost as one of them and not above any of them.

We know she is talking to John.

Think about it, Jesus us dieing on the cross. Do you really think one of the things He is going say is sonething, "Behold your mother." He is using John (who is not the son of Mary) to speak for us all Christians.

She is our Mother.

JeffreyLloyd · Sep 15, 2003

DaTsar said:
So now I ask you, are you really not in the slightest suspicious that the mother Mary is not at all so big because of this fact?

I look forward to hear your reply,
God bless,
DaTsar

No I don't.

JeffreyLloyd · Sep 15, 2003

Godzman said:
wrong it was compiled by the church, before Catholic teaching were led astray, and in fact it was overwhemingly used by all Christians not just catholics, that is a term that was used to fend of Gnosticism, well it did, and then the Church became corrupt and filled with to much power, and we had various reformation before the great one.

JeffreyLloyd · Sep 15, 2003

ten-k said:
1Tim.2:5
For there is one 'God' and one 'Mediator'
between God and men,
the man 'Christ Jesus'. amen

So everytime you pray for one of your firends you are going to God in place of Christ? So you really believe that?

JeffreyLloyd said:
ten-k said:

1Tim.2:5
For there is one 'God' and one 'Mediator'
between God and men,
the man 'Christ Jesus'. amen

Click to expand...

Asking one person to pray for you in no way violates Christs mediatorship, as can be seen from considering the way in which Christ is a meditor. First, Christ is a unique mediator between man and God because he is the only person who is both God and man. He is the only bridge between the two, the only God-man. But that role as mediator is not compromised in the least by the fact that others intercede for us. Furthermore, Christ is a unique mediator between God and man because he is the Mediator of the New Covenant (Heb. 9:15, 12:24), just as Moses was the mediator (Greek mesites) of the Old Covenant (Gal. 3:1920).

The intercession of fellow Christianswhich is what the saints in heaven arealso clearly does not interfere with Christs unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:14). Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others something "good and pleasing to God," not something infringing on Christs role as mediator.

http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp

Acceptance · Sep 15, 2003

http://www.users.bigpond.com/billmastermind/moments106.htm

http://www.users.bigpond.com/billma.../moments106.htm http://www.users.bigpond.com/billmastermind/moments106.htmhttp://www.users.bigpond.com/billmastermind/moments106.htmhttp://www.users.bigpond.com/billmastermind/moments106.htm

Siting a commentary doesn't count. To legitimately site something, you need to post a credible source. Homemade websites do not a factual document make.

My previous post remains:

What I want to know is where in the bible does it say that we shouldn't ask Mary and the Saints for intercession? If you believe the bible is the only source of Truth (even though when it was compiled by the Catholic church, it was acknowledged that it was not) than the burdan of proof lies on you. Please list verses.

Godzman · Sep 16, 2003

JeffreyLloyd said:
We know she is talking to John.

Think about it, Jesus us dieing on the cross. Do you really think one of the things He is going say is sonething, "Behold your mother." He is using John (who is not the son of Mary) to speak for us all Christians.

She is our Mother.

thats funny my mothers name is not mary.

She was the mother of Jesus my lord and saviour, be careful to go with tradition over scripture, no graven images, remember that one, becareful to put you trust in a denomination, rather then Gods word

aggie03 · Sep 16, 2003

Acceptance said:
Siting a commentary doesn't count. To legitimately site something, you need to post a credible source. Homemade websites do not a factual document make.

My previous post remains:

Your previous post does not stand, because the Catholic denomination did not compile or give us the Bible. As of the council of Trent, there was still discussion as to what was to be included in the Scriptures or not - that was around 1500!

The Bible was also compiled before the Synod of Hippo in AD 393:

Polycarp (115 AD), Clement of Alexandria (c. 200 AD) and other early writers refer to the New Testament books with the phrase as it is said in these scriptures. (Ready Defense, Josh McDowell)

And on the day called Sunday there is a gathering together to one place of all those who live in the cities or in the country, and the memoirs of the Apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits. (Justin Martyr, First Apology, c. 150 AD)

Again it is not tedious to speak of the books of the New Testament. These are the four gospels, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Afterwards, the Acts of the Apostles and Epistles, seven viz. of James one; of Peter two; of John three; after these one of Jude. In addition, there are fourteen Epistles of Paul, written in this order. The first to the Romans; then two to the Corinthians; after these, to the Galatians; next, to the Ephesians; then to the Philippians; then to the Colossians; after these two to the Thessalonians; and that to the Hebrews; and again, two to Timothy; one to Titus; and lastly, that to Philemon. And besides, the Revelation of John. (Athanasius, L, 552) (367 AD)

These quotes are sufficient to prove that the books of the Bible were known as the word of God, quoted from and used for instruction prior to the Synod of Hippo. The Catholic denomination did not give us the Bible God did.

Millions of Christians died for their faith before the catholic denomination held a council, which did not determine the canon, but only recognized things which already existed. I must be rather emphatic, the Catholic denomination did not give us the Bible, God did.

Here are some other things to think about:

The church of Christ is not the determiner of Scripture, it is the discoverer of Scripture.
The church of Christ is not the mother of Scripture, it is the child of Scripture.
The church of Christ is not the magistrate of Scripture, it is the minister of Scripture.
The church of Christ is not the regulator of Scripture, it is the recognizer of Scripture.
The church of Christ is not the judge of Scripture, it is the witness of Scripture.
The church of Christ is not the master of Scripture, it is the servant of Scripture.

brewmama · Sep 16, 2003

aggie03 said:
Your previous post does not stand, because the Catholic denomination did not compile or give us the Bible. As of the council of Trent, there was still discussion as to what was to be included in the Scriptures or not - that was around 1500!

The Bible was also compiled before the Synod of Hippo in AD 393:

Polycarp (115 AD), Clement of Alexandria (c. 200 AD) and other early writers refer to the New Testament books with the phrase as it is said in these scriptures. (Ready Defense, Josh McDowell)

And on the day called Sunday there is a gathering together to one place of all those who live in the cities or in the country, and the memoirs of the Apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits. (Justin Martyr, First Apology, c. 150 AD)

Again it is not tedious to speak of the books of the New Testament. These are the four gospels, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Afterwards, the Acts of the Apostles and Epistles, seven viz. of James one; of Peter two; of John three; after these one of Jude. In addition, there are fourteen Epistles of Paul, written in this order. The first to the Romans; then two to the Corinthians; after these, to the Galatians; next, to the Ephesians; then to the Philippians; then to the Colossians; after these two to the Thessalonians; and that to the Hebrews; and again, two to Timothy; one to Titus; and lastly, that to Philemon. And besides, the Revelation of John. (Athanasius, L, 552) (367 AD)

These quotes are sufficient to prove that the books of the Bible were known as the word of God, quoted from and used for instruction prior to the Synod of Hippo. The Catholic denomination did not give us the Bible God did.

Millions of Christians died for their faith before the catholic denomination held a council, which did not determine the canon, but only recognized things which already existed. I must be rather emphatic, the Catholic denomination did not give us the Bible, God did.

Here are some other things to think about :

The church of Christ is not the determiner of Scripture, it is the discoverer of Scripture.
The church of Christ is not the mother of Scripture, it is the child of Scripture.
The church of Christ is not the magistrate of Scripture, it is the minister of Scripture.
The church of Christ is not the regulator of Scripture, it is the recognizer of Scripture.
The church of Christ is not the judge of Scripture, it is the witness of Scripture.
The church of Christ is not the master of Scripture, it is the servant of Scripture.

What do you think this proves? All the people you listed are saints and fathers of the Orthodox (and Catholic) Church. They are the ones who saved and shared all the NT writings in the Church. The council that finally decreed what was and wasn't Scripture and determined the canon OF COURSE used books that had been written earlier (by people in the Church!).

Something for you to ponder:

"He who has turned his back on the Church of Christ shall not come to the rewards of Christ.... You cannot have God for your Father if You have not the Church for your Mother."

St. Cyprian, writing in the third century

Acceptance · Sep 16, 2003

bullcrap, my mothers name is not mary.

Let's not be so hostile! I'm sure we're all capable of having a civil, respectful discussion about our belief's.

Your previous post does not stand, because the Catholic denomination did not compile or give us the Bible. As of the council of Trent, there was still discussion as to what was to be included in the Scriptures or not - that was around 1500!

1) Of course the scriptures were around before the Synod of Hippo, I agree completely! However at that time, there were also many other scriptures which did not get included in the bible that was compiled and is still used today (for example: Thomas).
2) It was at the Synod of Hippo that the bishops/priests voted on which books would be offically accepted as inspired. This needed to be done not only to weed out the many uninspired books, but also because the scriptures were not written by the finger of God as were the 10 commandments, (but no doubt the Holy Spirit was working through them when they voted.)
3) The Catholic church existed prior to the bible, it was founded in 33 AD by Jesus Christ. Members of this church wrote the NT scriptures.
4) At that time there was only 1 Christian church (the Catholic church). (I'm sure there were false teachers, yes, but only one main church.) This is the Church the compiled the bible (NT) as we know it.
5) As time went on, groups broke away from the church-- hence the name Protestant. They protest the church.
6) Because there was only one main church (the catholic one), and we know Polycarp and Clement of Alexandria were part of it, it is not really significant that they stated the books of the NT prior to the synod of Hippo. They were Catholics, thus you still have Catholics forming the bible.

The fact is the bible was made more than a thousand years prior to major reformation in the church. And even when others broke from the church, prior to Martin Luther, it was never even conceived of that the bible was the sole source of Christian teachings.

Acceptance · Sep 16, 2003

And a side note in response to:

The church of Christ is not the determiner of Scripture, it is the discoverer of Scripture.
The church of Christ is not the mother of Scripture, it is the child of Scripture.
The church of Christ is not the magistrate of Scripture, it is the minister of Scripture.
The church of Christ is not the regulator of Scripture, it is the recognizer of Scripture.
The church of Christ is not the judge of Scripture, it is the witness of Scripture.
The church of Christ is not the master of Scripture, it is the servant of Scripture.

Actually it is all of these things. And we know this because Christ Himself told us so.

Luke 24:45* tells us the exact moment that Christ gives the ability to truely understand scripture to the apostles. He does not give this ability to everyone, just to the earthly leaders of his church, at that time, the apostles.

In fact, 2 Peter 3:16** warns us as individuals not to interpret the scripture (because we can't do so correctly).

*[Luke 24:45 -- Jesus appearing before his apostles after rising "Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures"]
**[2 Peter 3:16 -- "This is what he says in all his letters when he writes on the subject. There are some difficult things in his letters which ignorant and unstable people explain falsely, as they do with other passages of the Scriptures. So they bring on their own destruction.]

TScott · Sep 18, 2003

Godzman said:
if they don't pray to mary then why do they pray blessed mother, she is Jesus's mother not ours. She was a key to Gods divinge plan, a critical one at that, I just don't believe she is the Queen of Heaven, I heard that before.

You don't seem to know very much about Mary. You don't seem to realize, for example, that Mary is The Immaculate Conception, that it was she that had to be born of a virgin and raised in total purity so that she could bear the son of God.

At least that is how the story goes.

Philip · Sep 18, 2003

TScott said:
that it was she that had to be born of a virgin

I don't think that is part of Catholic doctrine.

Miss Shelby · Sep 18, 2003

Philip said:
I don't think that is part of Catholic doctrine.

No, it isn't. Mary wasn't born of a virgin. Jesus was and that is what is known as the Virgin Birth. The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception does not teach that Mary was born of a virgin.

Michelle

Godzman · Sep 19, 2003

TScott said:
You don't seem to know very much about Mary. You don't seem to realize, for example, that Mary is The Immaculate Conception, that it was she that had to be born of a virgin and raised in total purity so that she could bear the son of God.

At least that is how the story goes.

I'm not catholic in the least, but I will support my catholic borthers and sister when there is a false teaching, and this smells like one.

Mary was not born of virgin, she was the virgin, and also I am sorry if I seemed to be hostile to the catholics before, I should love ya because you are my brothers and sisters in Christ if you know my Lord Jesus as your saviour.

Anyway God bless ya all

TScott · Sep 19, 2003

Miss Shelby said:
No, it isn't. Mary wasn't born of a virgin. Jesus was and that is what is known as the Virgin Birth. The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception does not teach that Mary was born of a virgin.

Michelle

I defer to you Michelle, it would appear that it is I, not Mr. Godzman, who doesn't know as much as he thinks he does.

However, the Immaculate Conception does refer to the conception of Mary by her mother St. Anne. It was suggested in the Protevangelium that Anne was barren (not virgin). EIther way, the point of the Immaculate Conception is that Mary was conceived without the stain of original sin. How this was achieved has been debated among the different churches since the days of Thomas Aquinas.

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