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Martin Luther and Positive Confession

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SavedByGrace3

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But this logic leaves you in a quandry.
If God does not use faith, then the entire passage falls appart... the whole context of the passage is that Jesus spoke words to a fig tree which then dried up as a result of His speaking. The disciples saw it and were amazed. The passage in question is Jesus speaking to that amazment. If God does not have faith, then why would Jesus(who is God) attribute the event to faith? Who was having the faith to effect the fig tree? And why would He tell us to do the same? If this verse does not mean exactly what it says, then the entire passage is rendered meaningless.
It seems you are doing a great deal of dodging and qualifying in order to avoid the obvious simple truth that He layed out here.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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Quaffer said:
No one is claiming that Luther is the final authority. . .if I'm understanding correctly, it's a thread showing that the WOF people are not the first to teach this message as they have been accused.
Quite true Q.
And this is one of the main objections to WOF theology: that it has all been derived from "new revelation" in the last 50 years. Whether it is "healing in the atonement", "speaking the word of faith", JDS, or whatever. All of these teachings have very old roots and are by no means the invention of WOF teachers.
 
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victoryword

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Hey Quaffer

In a sense I understood it in a similar way. Better yet, I understood it to mean that we were God's children and created in His image, and that we were created to be like Him (in a limited sense). I never felt that any of the advocates of this teaching were implying that we were DEITY ourselves. The principles implied within the doctrine were helpful, the term itself bothered me a little, especially after the Faith Movement came under strong attack for its doctrines.

I felt that the use of the phrase "son of God" or even "child of God" has the same implications as the phrase "little god." Nevertheless, Luther's statements are a slap in the face of those critics who desire to slam the faith teachers because they want to refer to themselves that way. If the Faith Teachers be heretics, then so is Martin Luther .... and C. S. Lewis .... and several church fathers of the first three centuries.



Andrew

Just from my perspective, I always felt that one could teach all that you mention in your post without necessarily using the "little gods" phrase. I felt that we were engagin in unnecessary controversy by the use of this term. Let's admit it, many Faith Teachers seem to enjoy "shock treatment". I myself am a strong defender of Word-Faith beliefs but I have felt that there are some things that we could easily dispense with.

Certainly Jesus David was inspired by the Spirit to use the phrase in Psalm 82:6. Certyainly Jesus reaffirmed this in John 10:34-36. Certainly we find the psalmist again reminding us that we were made only a shade lower than God. However, we do not find the Apostles constantly referring to themselves in this manner and in Paul's epistles it does not come up. Instead, we are referred to as sons of God and children of God.

All I am saying is that we should not overemphasize a phrase that the Bible itself does not overemphasize. Many of the principles taught under the "little gods" phrase can be validly taught without us having to "look in the mirror and saying 'hello god'" (as Eddie Long once taught on TBN).

I do not feel the phrase is wrong since Jesus and David said as much. Contrary to their critics, the Faith Teachers are not guilty of heresy, but they are guilty of overemphasizing a phrase unnecessarily.
 
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victoryword

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Well said Diddy
 
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victoryword

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Martin Luther and the "Jesus Died Spiritually" Doctrine

Special thanks to quest2004 (from another forum) for pointing me to the Roman Catholic webpage that gave me even more ammunition

It seems every critics of the Word-Faith movement uses JDS as it's main reason for claiming it to be heretical. Many claim that E. W. Kenyon invented this teaching and passed it down to later Faith advocates. From Jesus being seperated from the Father, to Jesus supposedly taking on a "satanic nature" to "Jesus being dragged into hell by demons and tortured."

However, while Faith critics harp on these things, we can assure the reader that the Faith teachers were NOT the first to tyeach on them. Martin Luther taught many of these things unashamedly. For example, Luther believed that Matthew 27:46 was a literal seperation between the Father and Son. It is said that Martin Luther sat contemplating the words of this Scripture passage many years ago. After a long time he rose from his chair and exclaimed,

"God forsaken of God! Who can understand that?"
But unless that remains unclear, here is more commentary from Luther on Psalms 22, the verse that Jesus is quoting upon the cross:

In other words, Luther believed that Christ died spirituall, since the basic meaning of spiritual death is seperation from God (see Eph. 2:1-6; Isa. 59:1-2). While critics have a difficult time with JDS, they have a more difficult time with the belief that Christ took on a satanic nature. I truly sympathize with the critic on this aspect even if I disagree with him on his vile criticism of it.

However, Luther is nearly as guilty as can be seen above when he says, "Christ was like one abandoned, one accursed, a sinner, a blasphemer, one ****** ..." Far from being an isolated statement, Luther uses even stronger language in his commentary on Galatians 3:13:

Need we say more? This is very strong language, stronger language than any Faith Teacher that I have read thus far. Nevertheless, it does not stop here. Luther is strongly criticized by some Roman Catholic theologians for what they believe is a departure from the church fathers and orthodox Catholic doctrine. One commentator in his criticism of Luther says:

If what the commentary states is true, how does this compare to some Faith Teacher's assertions about Jesus having a "wormy spirit", Jesus being tormented by the devil, Jesus being dragged into hell by the devil, etc.? Whether one truly agrees or disagrees, Luther's theology of Christ's redemptive work is no better or worse than any extreme Word-Faith JDS advocate.

These same Roman Catholic critics quote a passage from Luther's commentary to the Romans in which Luther explains Christ's descent into hell:

If the critic of the Faith Teachers would like to call Word-Faith a heretical teaching/movement due to its JDS, then let him do the same with Martin Luther, the great reformer of the 16th century. However, the critic should not stop at Luther since we can find a number of so called "heresies" amongst those who are otherwise considered to be "heroes of the faith." Unfortunately, when the critic has completed his task, he will find that he and a few others are the only ones on their way to heaven while the majority of the church is destined for hell because we are in heresy (as the critic defines heresy)

1. All info on the Catholic dispute with Luther is taken from this webpage: http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ499.HTM
Thanks to my friend, quest2004, for the info
 
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Andrew

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I do not feel the phrase is wrong since Jesus and David said as much. Contrary to their critics, the Faith Teachers are not guilty of heresy, but they are guilty of overemphasizing a phrase unnecessarily.

Hmmm, very wise and I'd have to agree with you. My Pastor once said the same thing, but he was refering to topics/doctrines. Sometimes, we also overemphasise doctrines/teachings that are not emphasised in the NT/epistles to the churches.
 
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victoryword

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More on Luther and JDS

Some will now probably side with the Roman Catholics and proclaim Luther a heretic. I am sure that they could tolerate most of Luther's Word-Faith heresies, but JDS? That's unpardonable!!!

And it ain't even the end. As I was reading another sermon by Luther on Philippians 2, I ran accross this statement concerning Jesus on the cross:

How much different is that from Kenneth Copeland's "wormy spirit" statement that his critics like to harp on. Oh, but this ain't even the finish. All the fuss about Jesus being tormented in hell by demons; while I am not in agreement with Copeland on such statements, he certainly was NOT the first to make them. In this same sermon, Martin Luther says the following:

Can it get any WORSE? We shall see. Based on this, Copeland should begin losing his status as the world's greatest false teacher. Either that or Word-Faith critics should admit that they are just wrong about the so called heresies in the Word-Faith Movement. I am sure that ice water will be served in hell before that happens.

Excerpts taken from A Sermon for Palm Sunday; Philippians 2:5-11 Full sermon can be found here:

http://users.rcn.com/tlclcms/mlsepalm.html
 
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victoryword

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More of Luther on Health and Prosperity

Martin Luther was indeed a "Health and wealth" preacher (in the moderate sense). In his "The Large Catechism" Luther comments on the Scriptures teaching the necessity to obey their parents. Expounding on the promises that come with such, Luther makes the following statements:

From http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/catechism/web/cat-06.html

Thank God that Luther did not fall into the fatalistic trap that his predecessors, the RC church, did with their "poverty vows". On the contrary, Luther refutes the false poverty teaching of his time:

from http://users.rcn.com/tlclcms/mlsejn06.html

So Luther explains what it means to be "poor in spirit". It is NOT being without material possessions, but simply relying on Christ. Thank God that Luther did not take with him the RC's povert gospel upon his freedom. Neither did he fall into the trap of later protestants who taught that both fortune and misfortune was the result of some mysterious sovereign decree.

Obedience to God brings material as well as spiritual blessings. This is not true because Luther taught it, it is true because this is taught in God's Word. However, we thank God that Luther confirms this without compromising the Word.
 
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victoryword

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look said:
Thank you Brother Victoryword...Keep it coming, this stuff edifies me greatly!!!
I wonder if Brother Copeland is hearing any of this???
Hi Look

I plan to put all of this together in an article and place it on my webpage. I will probably also make it available in Acrobat and Word doc form. Of course I want to make it more coherent than the way I have been presenting it here.

I have been reading even more stuff by Luther on prayer and having our physical needs met and I have come to realize that I have barely touched the surface. Add that to reports of Luther and his deliverance and healing ministry. These are not so widely distributed on the net so I will have to search my library to find books that deal with these subjects. But I will be getting more of this stuff together - and perhaps I will send the Copeland ministries a copy upon completion.
 
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Theophilus7

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I'm sorry for taking a while to get back to you.

didaskalos said:
But this logic leaves you in a quandry. If God does not use faith, then the entire passage falls appart...
Does it?

You are quite right to say that the passage is in the context of Jesus speaking to the fig tree, and that essentially Jesus was saying, 'have faith and you can do the same'. I think you confuse the issue, however, when you say "Jesus has faith", therefore "God has faith" because Jesus is God. You are forgetting that Jesus is also a man, that the divine Logos took upon Himself our humanity. A pantheistic philosopher once said, "when the absolute descends into the sea it becomes a fish". A similar principle applies here. When God becomes man, He is seen to have perfect faith. He depends upon his Father (as we are to do) and learns obedience through what He suffers. Indeed, no man, no real man, certainly no good man, could be without faith. If by "the God-kind of faith" you mean Jesus' faith in God, if that is how you understand Mark 11:22, we're not that different, except in our translation.

God bless,

Theophilus7
 
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victoryword

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Godz Marine said:
Besides Martin Luther being a WOF man, Mary the mother of Jesus was a tongue talker!!!! Acts 1:14 and Acts 2:1-4.

Wow, good point. I never thought about that. She certainly was. Surely I will have to remember this in my next class when I teach on receiving the Holy Spirit baptism.
 
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