Dear Calminian, Thanks for trying, brother.
1 John 3:14
We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
In Love,
Aman
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I kind of had a feeling that would be your response. Figured I'd give it a try.
Science has always confirmed my religion. My religion is a result ofmy 20 years in science research & development working in product development and QC labs. There is no such thing as scientific history or even accurate history. Scientific history is as much a lie as any fortune cookie you read. Certainly not from Hell. Just stupid application of effort.Why do you deny that the discoveries of Science and History which refute your religion, are True also? Do you think the true discoveries of Science and History are just lies from the pits of Hell?
My only explanation of "Peter's total destruction of the first heaven" is that you made it all up, because Peter doesn't talk about a first heaven being destroyed. He talks about the present heavens being destroyed.Dear Assyrian, You are correct IF you find it impossible to see the deep truth of the words. Try to explain , with YOUR understanding.
No.I know. He tells us the first kosmos (Cosmos) the first world, the first heaven, the first Universe, was totally destroyed in the Flood. Correct?
They're not. Peter uses the word kosmos to describe the sinful society destroyed by the flood 2Pet 2:5 if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly. 2Pet 3:6 and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. It does not mean the heavens and the earthSure he does. He tells us that our heaven and earth will be burned. Instead of using the word kosmos, he uses the word heavens and earth. 2 Peter 3:7
But the heavens and the earth, WHICH ARE NOW, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire...
Can you see that kosmos and heavens and earth are both terms for the same thing?
You still haven't provided scriptural evidence to identified Paul's third heaven with any heaven mentioed in Genesis or 2 Peter, or given any scriptural basis for the numbers you attach to the other heavens.The first "Heaven" was made the 2nd Day. Gen. 1:6-8
Other "Heavens" were made the 3rd Day. Gen. 2:4
You may know that, I don't. There isn't any basis basis in scripture for that claim.Lets play a game. We know the first heaven was made the 2nd Day...
Again, there no mention of creating any heavens on the third day.and the other heavens were made the 3rd Day,
Or at least a third heaven. The numbering may simply be symbolic. But lets assume it means there are (at least) three heavens.and we know that Scripture speaks of 3 heavens.
Assuming the heaven made on day two is the first heaven. You haven't shown that.The first is different from the others because it is surrounded by water.
The world? To come? I thought Paul already went there.The third is the world to come, the perfect world of God.
I look out a window and I can see the earth, along with a number of different things that could be described as the heavens, clouds, the sky, the sun moon and stars out in space. What basis do you have to label everything as the 2nd heaven?Which one is missing? Why, it's our world, the 2nd heaven, which is not mentioned specifically, but is easy to discern. All you have to do is look out the window.
No you arbitrarily attached numbers to different heavens mentioned in scripture, and to some heavens you made up yourself.Your premise in incorrect. I just laid out the scriptural basis for the different heavens, Scripturally.
It is the same word in Hebrew. If you want to go by the capitalisation thrown in by the AV translators, your 'first' heaven on day two is capitalised Gen 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. But your 'second and third' heavens in are lower case Gen 2:4 in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.By the context of the verses. It is the beginning of the creation and God makes the heaven (air), earth (ground) and water. But the ground was without form and empty, and death was upon everything God had made apart from Himself. That is WHY the word "earth" is used in Genesis 1:1 and the word "Earth" is used in Genesis 1:10.
That was a Greek philosophical idea, not Hebrew one. If it was a Hebrew one you might argue that the writer was describing creation in those terms, not that Jesus had to made the world that way. Though it seems unlikely the writer of Genesis 1 was describing the creation in terms of the elements dust, air and water since Genesis 1 doesn't even mention air or dust,The old idea that everything is made of air, dust, and water, and those things which have life, also have fire, which completes the necessary ingredients to make EVERYthing which exists physically. Correct? With these physical ingredients Jesus will be able to produce a Singularity, in order to make our world. Correct?
No. Genesis 2:4 says in the day God created the heavens and the earth. If you want to identify a period in Genesis 1 with that, you need to find a time that fits both descriptions, a day when God created both heavens and the earth. That is not day 3.Go back and look for the Day the Earth was made. It was the 3rd Day. Genesis 1:9-10
On that 3rd Day, the LORD made the plants to grow, but BEFORE that happens, the LORD makes man of the dust of the ground and breathes into his nostrils the breath of life, and man becomes a living soul. That is what Genesis 2:4-7 is telling us.
I wouldn't use Occam's razor as an argument if I were you. 'Simple' in terms of Occam's razor means you don't have to make up lots of things for your idea to work. It says the more things you have to make up for it to work, the less likely your idea is to be true. Because I have never come across an interpretation of Genesis that makes up more stuff than yours.Sure it does. Occam's razor. God's Truth is the complete Truth and the most simple. Genesis 1 is the complete History of the first 6 Days, which are ongoing. Genesis 2:1-3 tells us of a Future time on the Age of Joy, the 7th Day, the Great Sabbath, when God rests from ALL of His work of creating. Genesis 2:2-3
I think Genesis 1&2 are both figurative pictures of God's work of creation. Because they are not meant literally, there is no reason to try to fit the two stories together, and as we have seen they don't fit. I see Genesis 2 as a parable, an expansion the potter metaphor we see so often in scripture, where God makes each one of us from clay, or when it says that nation of Israel is clay in the potters hand.I haven't seen anything from you. When are you going to tell us how your interpretation is better than mine? It's easy to set back and shoot down views but much harder to actually post something positive. Please try to do better.
In Love,
Aman
How can you say 'Absolutely' then completely fail to answer my point? Lets try again.Dear Assyrian, Absolutely. The purpose of the additional text in Genesis 2:4-7 is to show that man was made after the earth was made but before the plants grew on the 3rd Day. The rest of the Bible is the same, since it adds details to the outline of Genesis 1 which tells us of God's 6 Creative Days. The details add information to the events of the 6 Days.
You are saying that God is going to judge people based on whether the believe your unique interpretation of Genesis or not?Not so. Peter reveals how to tell Bible believers from those whose faith is in man's knowledge. Science is ignorant of the FACT that we inherited our Human intelligence from Adam's descendants. Their entire Theory of Evolution is in jeapordy because of this knowledge. God set a trap for those who THINK they know more than God, and Peter is telling us of the Snare, which God will use in the last days to separate the good from the evil.
Extraterrestrial means someone from another planet, you believe Noah and his family came from a different planet to theis one don't you.I have Never referred to Adam as an extraterrestrial. He lived in another heaven which could easily fit into Lake Van in the mountains of Ararat. Picture a Giant Snow Globe, which is completely separate from out Cosmos, but floating in Lake Van.
It refers to tribes living in and around Canaan, called Anakim or Rephaim (AV 'giants') descended from the Nephilim (AV also 'giants') we read about in Genesis 6. Num 13:33 And there we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak, who come from the Nephilim), and we seemed to ourselves like grasshoppers, and so we seemed to them." They lived in the area we call Jordan Deut 2:20 (It is also counted as a land of Rephaim. Rephaim formerly lived there--but the Ammonites call them Zamzummim-- 21 a people great and many, and tall as the Anakim; but the LORD destroyed them before the Ammonites, and they dispossessed them and settled in their place.) They were among the enemies defeated in Canaan by Joshua Josh 11:21 And Joshua came at that time and cut off the Anakim from the hill country, from Hebron, from Debir, from Anab, and from all the hill country of Judah, and from all the hill country of Israel. Joshua devoted them to destruction with their cities, and by Caleb Josh 14:12 So now give me this hill country of which the LORD spoke on that day, for you heard on that day how the Anakim were there, with great fortified cities. It may be that the LORD will be with me, and I shall drive them out just as the LORD said." The last we hear of them are Goliath and his friends described as being descended from the Rephaim 2Samuel 21:22 David and his soldiers killed these four men who were descendants of the Rephaim from Gath.Assyrian? Hello? I didn't catch your answer to "and also after that". Hello?
Genesis 1:12 and Genesis 2:8 both agree that the plants were made AFTER man was made. It's the ONLY way it could be.
OK...Dear Assyrian, Here it is:
Genesis 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
These verses clearly state that the firmament, which God called Heaven, was made on the 2nd Day. Correct?
How does it take you back to the third day, when that only describes creating the earth, not the heavens and the earth.4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,
Notice that this verse takes us BACK to the events of the THIRD Day, the same Day the EARTH was made. Genesis 1:9-10 tells us the first EARTH was made the 3rd Day.
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth,
Genesis 1:12 tells us the plants GREW on the 3rd Day.
The verses are saying that on the 3rd Day the SAME Day the Earth was made but BEFORE the plants GREW, the LORD made man of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul.
It is part of a different creation story I wouldn't even try to link them together. If I had to, I would point you back to Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. The 'day ' God created the heavens and the earth does not refer to a particular 24 hour day (which I know you agree with) nor does it fit any of the six days in Genesis 1. Day one is out, it say God created the heavens and the earth but the watery chaos we read in Gen 1:2 is too different form what we read of in Genesis 2. The rest of the 6 days in Genesis are spent creating and filling either the earth, the seas, of the heavens. On no day other than day one did God create the heavens and the earth. That leaves one other possibility, that day refer to an extended period as you believe for the days of Genesis 1, but it was a much longer period covering all six day of creation described in Genesis 1.If you don't agree, then tell us what he verses are telling YOU.
Sorry it doesn't say that. It doesn't say the heavens made on day two are the first heavens. Remember Gen 1:1 in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Nor does it say the numbering system for Paul's 'third heaven' is based on the order of their creation.The first heaven was made first, on the 2nd Day.
The bible doesn't say that. Remember I showed you the firmament still existed when David wrote Psalm 19?It was totally destroyed in the Flood.
The bible doesn't say any heavens were made on the third day and it doesn't the heavens with billions of stars is the second heaven. Listen I have told you all this before, again and again. Do you have any actual scriptural evidence about the numbers of the heavens, if not please so so rather than simply repeating the same claims over and over.The second heaven is our Cosmos with it's Billions upon Billions of Stars. It was made the 3rd Day (Gen. 2:4) and it is scheduled to be burned.
Any evidence linking Paul's third heaven with the new heaven and new earth in Revelation, or that it is the new heaven and new earth as opposed to just the new heaven. Any evidence the third heaven was made the same time our world was made?The Third Heaven or the New Heaven and New Earth of Revelation 21:1 is the heaven with streets of Gold and Gates of Pearl. It was made at the same time our world was made.
Ok, but I don't see how it help you claims about the numbers for each heaven.God knows how to make as many heavens or Universes as He wants. All you have to do is create a singularity which becomes a Big Bang and you can scatter as many worlds as you wish, into the boundary of a Heaven. Of course, it takes unlimited amounts of time to accomplish this. God has as much time as needed.
Ok I get what you mean by 'to come', but why do you call worlds heavens?He did, which is Why I post that the 3rd Heaven was also made on the 3rd Day. I do not limit God to how many singularities He can cause nor how many worlds will come from the process which God put into motion Billions of years ago. How many more Giant Stars have yet to implode and create other worlds?
I thought the firmament was called heaven? And where do you get the idea that our universe has a boundary or that the boundary is a firmament?The first heaven had a firmament or boundary, which kept it apart from our heaven and the third heaven. The boundary of our Universe seems endless but also has a boundary which separates us from the third heaven. Just as you cannot look out your window and see the world of Adam, neither can you see the world of God. You see the present 2nd Heaven which is scheduled to be burned. It won't affect the third heaven when our present second heaven is burned.
Does Strong's say Heaven in Gen 1:8 and Earth in Gen 1:10 should be capitalised? Does it say Heaven and earth in Gen 1:1 are different words to heaven and earth in the rest of the chapter? Does Strong's say that shamayim should be translated heaven in Genesis 1 and heavens in Genesis 2?I don't follow the paraphrased views of the AV translators. I'm strickly a KJV, with Strong's Concordance, to allow me my own views and not those of the KJV translators. IOW, I get as close to the original meaning as possible. Then I measure that Truth with the Truth of Science and History. When I find a match, I know I have found God's Truth, which can only be understood by His children.
The Hebrew word shamayim is plural. It doesn't have a singular form, so whether you are talking about one of them or multiple, it is still shamayim. Heavens is the closer translation, but you need to think of it the way we say 'the heavens opened' to describe rain, or say that 'the skies are blue' without suggesting there were multiple celestial realms involved.You're the one adding the S to the Hebrew word shamayim. I don't suppose you would like to defend that action. If so, then present your evidence. I don't think you can.Assyrian:>>You still haven't addressed my question why when Genesis uses the word heavens in Genesis 1:1 they don't count among your three heavens.
Correct that it is an old idea, not that is a correct idea.Aman:>>The old idea that everything is made of air, dust, and water, and those things which have life, also have fire, which completes the necessary ingredients to make EVERYthing which exists physically. Correct?
Quarks would be better, of as God he could simply speak it into existence.With these physical ingredients Jesus will be able to produce a Singularity, in order to make our world. Correct?
It shows that you can squash any text into your eclectic mix of bits of science and bits of alchemy.It does in the Hebrew. Heaven/sky/air/atmosphere are the same. Earth/ground/land/soil are the same. Water is a mixture of the gases in the heaven/air and was not created separately. It's one of the PROOFS that only God could have possibly written Genesis.
The third day in Genesis 1 doesn't include making the heavens or man. If you want to identify Gen 2:4 with Genesis 1 find a time when Genesis 1 says God created the heavens and the earth. Don't just make it up.Sure it is. The verse you cite is speaking of the 3rd Day, the SAME day the first Earth was made, the SAME day the other HeavenS were made, and the SAME day man was made from the dust of the ground.
Dear Readers. What Aman forgets here is that God loves figurative language. Jesus himself spoke to us in metaphors parables and symbols. I don't think he was an ancient goat herder, he did say he was the Good Shepherd, but that was speaking figuratively.Dear Readers, I offer my comments: Figurative means I get to make up my own reasons to explain this. Not literally means I don't believe God's Holy Word literally. TWO stories shows the contradiction which can only be explained by claiming that God's Bible was written by a bunch of ancient goat herders. IOW, Don't believe anything I have to say.
When did Jesus say Adam was made on the 3rd day?I see. Jesus is just lying since He tells us Adam was made the 3rd Day. You seem to know better, but you find it IMPOSSIBLE to support your view that man was formed of the dust on the 6th Day. No wonder I can get nothing but negative views from you.
You asked me how I interpret it, I answered you. How is that dodging the issue?Figuratively, Not literally, poetic, metaphore, etc. are the words you use to dodge the issue.
You think the day are billions of years long, that is not interpreting the days literally.I am glad to see that you know that our rest is yet to come. The 7th Day is yet future. Notice I'm not using these words in any metaphoric, poetic, or figuratively language. I'm speaking straight at you.
That means all the science you reject shows you haven't found God truth.God's Truth MUST agree with every other discovered Truth or we have not found God's Truth.
If it's the ONLY way it could be, why can't you answer the question?Dear Assyrian, Of course it does. It was on the 3rd Day, the SAME Day the Earth was made, but BEFORE the plants grew, and before the rain, that the LORD God made man of the dust of the ground....Assyrian:>>You are giving the reason there were no plants in Gen 1:10, "they hadn't been created yet". But you still haven't addressed the rest of my question. Is this the reason given in Gen 2:5 for there not being any plants? Does the reason there were no plants in Gen 2:5 fit the reason there were no plants in Gen 1:10?
Notice there were NO plants, it was BEFORE the plants were made. Genesis 1:12 and Genesis 2:8 both agree that the plants were made AFTER man was made. It's the ONLY way it could be.
But you think the Israelites were descended from your 'intellectual' giants who were 'and also after that'. I've show you they weren't.Dear Assyrian, I don't think Noah's grandsons thought of themselves as Israelites. They were more like Turkeyites.
Those who have not been born Spiritually see this a Foolishness. Christians, what do you think?
quite a bit after actually. about 4 billion years after. we evolved into being. want more info, feel free to ask.
i know that you're going to have questions on this and i will answer them as best i can because i feel that you don't believe in evolution because you havn't understood it properly.
Aman777 said:Dear No answer, Evolution is the change in the allele frequency over time within a population. It happens everytime a baby is born. I call it Adaptation within kinds, but you're free to call it whatever you want.
Evolutionism is the false religion of man which supposes that long periods of time produced Human intelligence in Apes. As you can see, I'm a believer in evolution or changes within kinds, but NOT in the false Theory of the evolution of Human intelligence from mindless Nature.
If you would like to know more about How and when we became Human, just let me know. It's the Truth of Science, History, and Scripture.
In Love,
Aman
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