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Spinrad

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War is very necessary when you are attacked as a nation. Having a standing defensive force is crucial to maintaining political sovereignty. However, I think if you are to be an ethical nation there is never a reason to start a war. Even imminent attack doesn't justify declaring war. Limited strikes will do the job. But once you are attacked you are at war whether you declare it or not.
 
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belladonic-haze

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But you can fight back in a peaceful way. It takes so much longer. The road is more difficult and might take several decades to achieve freedom again. But it is the only way to make others see the beauty of it.....

Like when someone hits you and you do not fight back.......Is that a fight?

I know it sounds stupid.....but isn't a world filled with peace so much more beautiful? Or am I a dreamer?
 
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Spinrad

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If someone hits you and you don't fight back it's called a felony. If no one prosecutes then you are simply a victim. If that's OK with you go for it. It's not OK with me. And as long as at least one person is not OK with it there will be fighting.
 
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belladonic-haze

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Spinrad said:
If someone hits you and you don't fight back it's called a felony. If no one prosecutes then you are simply a victim. If that's OK with you go for it. It's not OK with me. And as long as at least one person is not OK with it there will be fighting.
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I've been a victim for years. I have not prosecuted them but I am so much better the 'them' because they can not hurt me anymoreand I will not lower myself to their level. That means that I won, peacefully without violence and that I am a survivor.....

So, I've been there, done that....

Give me another reason to use violence?
 
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The Seeker

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belladonic-haze said:
Like when someone hits you and you do not fight back.......Is that a fight?
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No, its you getting your behind kicked.

Sometimes it is our duty to fight back. If my mate is getting beaten up, it is my duty to step in and try to help him. If there is an injustice, then it is everybody's duty to struggle to right it.
 
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Anduril

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Sounds nice but is really just a simplistic ideology that doesn't reflect all potential scenarios or the complexity of many human conflicts. War should be avoided if at all possible, however there are situations where war is necessary. For example, what if mass genocide was being committed within a country, should peaceful solutions always be pursued while hundreds of thousands are being slaughtered? What if a peaceful solution isn't possible? Should the Allies have surrendered to Hitler and the Japanese in WW2? What about self defense?
 
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belladonic-haze

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The Seeker said:
No, its you getting your behind kicked.

Sometimes it is our duty to fight back. If my mate is getting beaten up, it is my duty to step in and try to help him. If there is an injustice, then it is everybody's duty to struggle to right it.
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Stepping in without he use of violence is possible.......You might get hit as well....but you can stop a fight that way. I am not talking about standing by the sideline and look how someone gets beaten up. Why is a peaceful way of life always mixed up with cowardly behavior?
 
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belladonic-haze

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Spinrad said:
There is no true liberty, but there is personal liberty with the proviso that mine doesn't directly affect yours. And that means fighting.
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Hmm, let me explain: When all living beings are respected, loved and treated with compassion all living beings live in a free world, filled with peace......

Utopia? Maybe today....but what about tomorrow?
 
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Spinrad

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How does two people instead of one person getting beaten equal justice?
 
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The Seeker

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Because unless you are willing to physically defend yourself, then you are just going to get hurt. I don't know what its like where you live, but round here, if you fight back if somebody is hitting you. These aren't playground bullies, who'll kick you in the nuts and run, this is several grown men who will keep hitting you untill you have stopped moving, people who'll smash a pint glass against your face and laugh about it later.

Sometimes, violence is the only way to protect yourself and your loved ones.
 
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Spinrad

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belladonic-haze said:
Hmm, let me explain: When all living beings are respected, loved and treated with compassion all living beings live in a free world, filled with peace......

Utopia? Maybe today....but what about tomorrow?
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Can't happen. Communism is a perfect system as well, but as long as one person cheats the whole system fails. As klong as one person is willing to use violence to gain an advantage there can be no true pacifism. Pacifism that has worked has done so based on two underlying principles: shame and the threat of true chaos. People romanticise the positive accomplishments of pacifist movements, but forget about the radical and violent movements that existed alongside them. Without force of law would the south ever have desegregated? Without the weight of violent Sikh and Muslim sects would Ghandi's efforts have been as successful? Not to mention Briton's overall problems in Europe and China?
 
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The Seeker

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belladonic-haze said:
Did Jesus ever killed someone? Did Buddha? Did Gandhi? to name a few......

Do they have lost their influence in this world? Have people forgotten them? Do people find them cowards because they are against violence, war and so on?
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Did Jesus ever achieve anything? Did Buddha? Did Gandhi?

And before you repeat that same tired old myth, Gandhi was not solely responsible for driving the British Empire out of India. I think the armed resistance against the British army and the fact that the British Empire was increasingly economically unviable might just have had something to do with it.
 
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belladonic-haze

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Believe me, my country isn't that different from yours.......

But violence is not the best way. I do understand that sometimes it seems like the only way. But is that true? Is it the only way?
 
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