Make a list of all your SDA doctrines, you will not find that combo in the Early Church Fathers, Who

Dale · Oct 7, 2019

Crosstian said:
Well, one doctrine, belief or teaching at a time should be considered, otherwise it could be distracting.

Secondly, would you consider those of the NT , such as Peter, James, John, Peter, Jude, part of the ECF or do you exclude these? Same goes for the OT members of the church (Acts 7:38), such as Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Job, Moses, Joshua, Samuel, and the prophets (Daniel, Isaiah, Jeremoah, etc), and kings such as, David, Solomon, etc, do you count them as part of the ECF?, or are you narrowly defining the ECF to anyone after the original Apostles died?

Also, I do have a question, in regards what you would accept as ECF, and in how many ECF does a doctrine have to be found, and does every doctrine have to be found in every ECF, when the ECF all believed and taught different things on differing subjects (yes, this may be documented, but is not the point of this thread).

So, Seventh-day Adventists, having read the material, teach that there are 3 eternal Persons/Beings that always have co-existed together:

[1] the Father
[2] the Son (Word)
[3] the Holy Ghost/Spirit (another Comforter)

"... The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, the eternal Godhead ..." - Ms 45, May 14, 1904, par. 16; May 14, 1904

"… The Godhead was stirred with pity for the race, and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit gave themselves to the working out of the plan of redemption. ..." - Lt 12, January 21, 1901, par. 10; January 21, 1901

“... Lead them to understand that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are heaven’s loving, powerful agencies for the accomplishment of the work of representing God in the world. ...” - Lt 93, 1900 (July 3, 1900) par. 3

"... There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit—those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ. ..." - Ms 21, 1906 (November 1905) par. 11

"... Those who are baptized in the threefold name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, at the very entrance of their Christian life declare publicly that they have accepted the invitation, “Come out from among them, and be ye separate, ... and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, and will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.” [2 Corinthians 6:17, 18.] “Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and of the Spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of the Lord.” [2 Corinthians 7:1.] “If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.” [Colossians 3:1.] Ms27a-1900 (April 19, 1900) par. 8 …" - Ms 27a, 1900 (April 19, 1900) par. 8

"... Here is where the work of the Holy Ghost comes in, after your baptism. You are baptized in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. You are raised up out of the water to live henceforth in newness of life—to live a new life. You are born unto God, and you stand under the sanction and the power of the three holiest beings in heaven, who are able to keep you from falling. You are to reveal that you are dead to sin; your life is hid with Christ in God. Hidden “with Christ in God”—wonderful transformation. This is a most precious promise. When I feel oppressed and hardly know how to relate myself toward the work that God has given me to do, I just call upon the three great Worthies, and say: You know I cannot do this work in my own strength. You must work in me, and by me, and through me, sanctifying my tongue, sanctifying my spirit, sanctifying my words, and bringing me into a position where my spirit shall be susceptible to the movings of the Holy Spirit of God upon my mind and character. Ms95-1906 (October 20, 1906) par. 29

And this is the prayer that every one of us may offer. ..." - Ms 95, 1906 (October 20, 1906) par. 29

"... All the intelligences of heaven are in this army. And more than angels are in the ranks. The Holy Spirit, the representative of the Captain of the Lord's host, comes down to direct the battle. Our infirmities may be many, our sins and mistakes grievous; but the grace of God is for all who seek it with contrition. The power of Omnipotence is enlisted in behalf of those who trust in God. {DA 352.2} ..." - Desire of Ages 352.2 (1898)

The OT teaches this:

Gen_19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

Isa_48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

Zec 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

Zec_13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

The NT teaches this:

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Joh_14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Col 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

Col 2:3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Others, afterward taught this:

Tertullian (Adversus Praxeam, section II) stated:

"... the three Persons—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost ..." - http://www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu/03d/0160-0220,_Tertullianus,_Adversus_Praxeam_[Schaff],_EN.pdf

"... I am bound to acknowledge, from the necessity of the case, that He who issues a command is different from Him who executes it. ..." - (Against Praxeas, chapter 12) - Tertullian (Roberts-Donaldson)

Ignatius (Ignatius to the Philadelphians) stated:

"... confesses the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost ..." - St. Ignatius of Antioch to the Philadelphians (Roberts-Donaldson translation)

Is this enough to substantiate the first point?

On whether Ellen White or the SDA and its offshoots accept the Trinity, I ran across this a while back.

<< This page is for Seventh day Adventists and those who follow the Spirit of Prophecy. Most Christians are not aware that history and the Bible reveal that the Adventist Church was specifically raised by God to restore a lost Commandment, teach end time Bible prophecy and prepare the world for the upcoming mark of the beast. However, in so saying, it is tragic that Satan slowly over time succeeded in bringing the trinity doctrine into the Adventist Church. >>

Link:
How The Trinity Got Into The Seventh Day Adventist Church

BobRyan · Oct 7, 2019

Daniel Marsh said:
Fruit of the tree. You are claiming the tree bears bad fruit.

Well fruit of that tree is both the Church Fathers and Copies of the Bible.

Again you equivocate between the ability to copy something and the attribute of being infallible in whatever writing someone makes up.

First of all - nothing is proven to show that all those guys copying things - were ECFs
Secondly - you can't equivocate between the "Ability to copy" and infallibility. Lots of people "can copy"

Latin translation did not come into play before Jerome, many years after the early church fathers.

I don't mind sticking with Greek on this point. The ability to copy one Greek text on to a new piece of paper - does not an infallible individual make. It is a non sequitter.

If A is rotten fruit and therefore can only produce rotten output.
And, A produced B & C therefore both B & C is rotten output.

It is possible to "copy 5 words correctly" and yet the next day... "covet".

Again not the impossible concept some would have it.j

But even worse you argue that if person-A can copy 5 words correctly then person B must be infallible. That is not logical at all. It would not even work as person-A copies 5 words correctly so then person-A must be infallible. But you are trying to get it between person-A and person-B as if "B" becomes infallible as soon as person "A" can copy 5 words correctly onto a piece of paper.

Why do you go to such a point at all?

BobRyan · Oct 7, 2019

Dale said:
On whether Ellen White or the SDA and its offshoots accept the Trinity, I ran across this a while back.

From the published/and-voted list of SDA doctrinal statements
28 Fundamental Beliefs | Hagerstown Seventh-day Adventist Church

We have this

2) The Trinity
Immortal, all-powerful and all-loving, God is a relationship of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The only being worthy of our worship, God is our Creator, Redeemer and Friend.
There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three coeternal Persons. God is immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation. God, who is love, is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation. (Gen. 1:26; Deut. 6:4; Isa. 6:8; Matt. 28:19; John 3:16 2 Cor. 1:21, 22; 13:14; Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Peter 1:2.)

And what no "SDA bashing site" has is a voted statement by the SDA denomination that denies the Trinity ever in all of time.

The historic list of published beliefs goes back to 1872 -- the first list published by the denomination -- and not one of those voted statements has ever opposed the Trinity. So the answer the question of "does the SDA deny the Trinity or does it accept it" - the published statements have the answer.

Now back to that interesting point about people that can copy 5 words correctly still not being infallible

BobRyan · Oct 7, 2019

Daniel Marsh said:
ECF would tell us how the teachings of the Apostles were understood as historical documents.

Until you read Acts 20 --

Acts 20
29 I know that after my departure, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.

BobRyan · Oct 7, 2019

Daniel Marsh said:
Try to find SDA view of death in the Early Church Fathers with links to quotes

Try to find SDA view of Sabbath vs Sunday in the Early Church Fathers with links to quotes

Or choose the sola scriptura model and show it in scripture.
OR be willing to include the actual Bible Writers..NT writers in your list of "early church fathers".
OR admit that while it is true that the Bible teaches it - later errors came into the church where it was no longer popular to teach it just as Paul predicted in Acts 20

Acts 20
29 I know that after my departure, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.

Daniel Marsh said:
The challenge of this thread is for you all to find your teachings in historical documents outside the bible. Looks like you all are failing, my friend.

How sad it would be if our "source" of truth was limited to traditions of man "outside the Bible"

Well Acts 20 says that avoid-your-Bible to find good doctrine, does not work.

Acts 17:11 says the same thing
11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see IF those things spoken by the Apostle Paul - were SO.

There you have the sola-scriptura method so devastating to error-prone-tradition

Here is another historical source then. It is the Gospel of Mark and the teaching of Christ -- two things the ECFs never complain about.

Mark 7
5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, “Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands?”
6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men—the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”
9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

There the tradition of the one true nation church started by God at Sinai - is being "hammered" sola scripture - by Christ Himself.

Gal 1:6-9
6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we (Apostles), or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

So "yeah" we are sticking with the NT teaching and not waiting for centuries later to have "any man" teach contrary to it.

BobRyan · Oct 7, 2019

Daniel Marsh said:
The challenge of this thread is for you all to find your teachings in historical documents outside the bible. Looks like you all are failing, my friend.

Dale said:
On whether Ellen White or the SDA and its offshoots accept the Trinity,

I assume you join in this view that the Bible cannot be trusted for doctrine???

How "instructive" for the unbiased objective reader.

Dale · Oct 7, 2019

BobRyan said:
From the published/and-voted list of SDA doctrinal statements
28 Fundamental Beliefs | Hagerstown Seventh-day Adventist Church

We have this

2) The Trinity
Immortal, all-powerful and all-loving, God is a relationship of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The only being worthy of our worship, God is our Creator, Redeemer and Friend.
There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three coeternal Persons. God is immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation. God, who is love, is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation. (Gen. 1:26; Deut. 6:4; Isa. 6:8; Matt. 28:19; John 3:16 2 Cor. 1:21, 22; 13:14; Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Peter 1:2.)

And what no "SDA bashing site" has is a voted statement by the SDA denomination that denies the Trinity ever in all of time.

The historic list of published beliefs goes back to 1872 -- the first list published by the denomination -- and not one of those voted statements has ever opposed the Trinity. So the answer the question of "does the SDA deny the Trinity or does it accept it" - the published statements have the answer.

Now back to that interesting point about people that can copy 5 words correctly still not being infallible

Bob Ryan: << 2) The Trinity
Immortal, all-powerful and all-loving, God is a relationship of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The only being worthy of our worship, God is our Creator, Redeemer and Friend.
There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three coeternal Persons. God is immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation. God, who is love, is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation. >>

That's great. Why didn't Ellen White say something like that?

Bob Ryan: << And what no "SDA bashing site has ...>>

I did not quote from an "SDA bashing site." I quoted from www.trinitytruth.org, which claims that the SDA church has gotten away from the beliefs of Ellen White. It looks like they are right about that.

From the same site:

<< In 1945, all the standard Adventist books were edited, and all the anti-Trinitarian statements were taken from them. >>

bbbbbbb · Oct 7, 2019

Dale said:
Bob Ryan: << 2) The Trinity
Immortal, all-powerful and all-loving, God is a relationship of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The only being worthy of our worship, God is our Creator, Redeemer and Friend.
There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three coeternal Persons. God is immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation. God, who is love, is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation. >>

That's great. Why didn't Ellen White say something like that?

Bob Ryan: << And what no "SDA bashing site has ...>>

I did not quote from an "SDA bashing site." I quoted from www.trinitytruth.org, which claims that the SDA church has gotten away from the beliefs of Ellen White. It looks like they are right about that.

From the same site:

<< In 1945, all the standard Adventist books were edited, and all the anti-Trinitarian statements were taken from them. >>

That, actually, is probably a good thing. The problem is that the SDA cannot actually admit that Mrs. White was wrong any more than the Catholic Church can admit that any of its Popes ever was in doctrinal error.

mmksparbud · Oct 7, 2019

Daniel Marsh said:
The challenge of this thread is for you all to find your teachings in historical documents outside the bible. Looks like you all are failing, my friend.

Why in the world would we want to get our teachings from documents outside the bible??? I should hope we fail, I have no interest in such a dumb thing!

bbbbbbb · Oct 7, 2019

mmksparbud said:
Why in the world would we want to get our teachings from documents outside the bible??? I should hope we fail, I have no interest in such a dumb thing!

That is an amazing statement coming from a member of a denomination which traditionally has accepted its distinctive dogmas from Mrs. White and not the Bible.

mmksparbud · Oct 8, 2019

bbbbbbb said:
That is an amazing statement coming from a member of a denomination which traditionally has accepted its distinctive dogmas from Mrs. White and not the Bible.

That is where you are totally wrong---we do not get our doctrines from EGW---we get them from the bible. If you were to prove the EGW was without a shadow of a doubt a false prophet---it would do absolutely nothing to our doctrines for they do not come from her. You do not understand the process by which our doctrines were derived. It was a group of people, several, along with EGW that gathered together and read the bible and came to conclusions on what the scriptures said about a topic and she would receive a message from God as to whether they were right or not. They were decided on by the reading of the scriptures, by several people, not her.

BobRyan · Oct 8, 2019

Dale said:
Bob Ryan:
From the published/and-voted list of SDA doctrinal statements
28 Fundamental Beliefs | Hagerstown Seventh-day Adventist Church
We have this
<< 2) The Trinity
Immortal, all-powerful and all-loving, God is a relationship of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The only being worthy of our worship, God is our Creator, Redeemer and Friend.
There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three coeternal Persons. God is immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation. God, who is love, is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation. >>

That's great.
Why didn't Ellen White say something like that?

1. "Third Person of the godhead" was her statement about the Holy Spirit.
2. She never said "my work is to rewrite scripture and tell you which parts are not to be deleted"
3. She was raised united Methodist and never doubted the Trinity - she was always Trinitarian

Dale said:
I quoted from www.trinitytruth.org, which claims that the SDA church has gotten away from the beliefs of Ellen White.

Clearly they need to "read more"

There are no anti-trinitarians making these statements

"The Holy Spirit is a Person." Evangelism, 616.

"The prince of the power of evil can only be held in check by the power of God in the Third Person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit." Special Testimonies, Series A, No.10, p.37; Ev.617.

"The Lord Jesus Christ, the divine Son of God, existed from eternity, a distinct Person, yet one with the Father." E.G. White Bible Commentary, vol.5, 1126.

"The Godhead was stirred with pity for the race, and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit GAVE THEMSELVES to the working out of the plan of redemption." Counsels on Health, 222.

((Therefore there are three distinct Persons of the Godhead. This is a mystery that finite human beings cannot fathom. .))

"Christ determined that when He ascended from this earth, He would bestow a gift on those who had believed on Him, and those who should believe on Him. What gift could He bestow rich enough to signalize and grace His ascension to the mediatorial throne? It must be worthy of His greatness and Royalty. He determined to give His Representative, THE THIRD PERSON OF THE GODHEAD. This gift could not be excelled. He would give all gifts in one, and therefore the divine Spirit, that converting, enlightening, and sanctifying power, would be His donation." E.G. White, Bible Commentary, vol. 6, 1053.

"The power of evil had been strengthening for centuries, and the submission of men to this satanic captivity was amazing. Sin could be resisted and overcome only through the mighty Agency of THE THIRD PERSON OF THE GODHEAD, who would come with no modified energy but in the fullness of divine power." Desire of Ages, 672.

=====================

Those who can imagine anti-trinitarians saying such things have yet to show how that happens in real life.

bbbbbbb · Oct 8, 2019

mmksparbud said:
That is where you are totally wrong---we do not get our doctrines from EGW---we get them from the bible. If you were to prove the EGW was without a shadow of a doubt a false prophet---it would do absolutely nothing to our doctrines for they do not come from her. You do not understand the process by which our doctrines were derived. It was a group of people, several, along with EGW that gathered together and read the bible and came to conclusions on what the scriptures said about a topic and she would receive a message from God as to whether they were right or not. They were decided on by the reading of the scriptures, by several people, not her.

Apparently you did not read my post entirely. I stated that your denomination traditionally has relied on Mrs. White for its distinctive dogmas. Without her none of those dogmas which distinguished your denomination from all other denominations would exist. For example, the dogma of the Investigative Judgement is unique to her and to your denomination. She initiated it and your denomination has followed it.

BobRyan · Oct 8, 2019

bbbbbbb said:
Apparently you did not read my post entirely. I stated that your denomination traditionally has relied on Mrs. White for its distinctive dogmas.

Which of course -- is not true.

By contrast - we are always interested in actual fact.

BobRyan · Oct 8, 2019

Dale said:
From the same site:

<< In 1945, all the standard Adventist books were edited, and all the anti-Trinitarian statements were taken from them. >>

Clearly those people at that site need to "read more" the raw manuscripts are available online now and the Ellen White estate has preserved the original autographs -- why not let "fact" lead the day?

BobRyan · Oct 8, 2019

Daniel Marsh said:
The challenge of this thread is for you all to find your teachings in historical documents outside the bible. Looks like you all are failing, my friend.

bbbbbbb said:
That, actually, is probably a good thing. The problem is that the SDA cannot actually admit that Mrs. White was wrong any more than the Catholic Church can admit that any of its Popes ever was in doctrinal error.

I assume you join in this view that the Bible cannot be trusted for doctrine??? or was that post your way of posting an opposing view from the OP??

I did not expect to find so many folks in harmony on that rather questionable proposal

bbbbbbb · Oct 8, 2019

BobRyan said:
Which of course -- is not true.

By contrast - we are always interested in actual fact.

So, please tell us when and by whom the doctrine of the Investigative Judgment first appeared.

BobRyan · Oct 8, 2019

bbbbbbb said:
So, please tell us when and by whom the doctrine of the Investigative Judgment first appeared.

First appears in Daniel 7
Then in Romans 2 and 2Cor 5:10 and Rev 14:7

Later we see it being rediscovered in the 1800's

When Jesus did not return as expected (an event which Adventists call the "Great Disappointment"), several alternative interpretations of the prophecy were put forward. The majority of Millerites abandoned the 1844 date; however, about 50 members out of the larger group of 50,000 (including Hiram Edson and O. R. L. Crosier) concluded that the event predicted by Daniel 8:14 was not the second coming, but rather Christ's entrance into the Most Holy Place of the heavenly sanctuary. as depicted in Daniel 7.

In particular, Hiram Edson had a vision as he crossed a cornfield on the morning after the Great Disappointment (Oct 23, 1844) , a revelation which led indicated that Christ had gone into the Most Holy Place of the Hebrew 8 - Sanctuary in heaven. That led one group of Adventists to a series of Bible studies with other Millerites to confirm the validity of his solution.

(Note that Ellen Harmon was 16 in October of 1844 and had no visions on the subject of the judgment nor was she considered the "leader" of anything)

The Bible study that resulted became the foundation for the Adventist doctrine of the sanctuary, and the people who held it became the nucleus of what would emerge from other "Adventist" groups as the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Edson's revelation was greatly encouraging for the Adventists.

A few years later Ellen White would write, "The scripture which above all others had been both the foundation and the central pillar of the advent faith, was the declaration, 'Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed'" (quoting Daniel 8:14).

James White, Crosier, and also Uriah Smith supported the belief and about 50 people were involved in the "Sabbath conferences" Bible study that worked out the details for the founding doctrines of the church.

"Over time, Adventists came to believe that the "cleansing" of the heavenly sanctuary involves a work of judgment as depicted in the courtroom scene of Daniel 7:9-12 immediately prior to the second coming of Christ described in Daniel 7:13-14. In the 1850s, J. N. Loughborough and Uriah Smith began to teach that a judgment had begun in 1844 when Christ entered the Most Holy Place. Subsequently, in 1857, James White wrote in the Review and Herald (now the Adventist Review) that an "investigative judgment" was taking place in heaven, in which the lives of professed believers would pass in review before God.[32] This is the first time that the phrase "investigative judgment" was used."

bbbbbbb · Oct 8, 2019

BobRyan said:
First appears in Daniel 7
Then in Romans 2 and 2Cor 5:10 and Rev 14:7

Later we see it being rediscovered in the 1800's

When Jesus did not return as expected (an event which Adventists call the "Great Disappointment"), several alternative interpretations of the prophecy were put forward. The majority of Millerites abandoned the 1844 date; however, about 50 members out of the larger group of 50,000 (including Hiram Edson and O. R. L. Crosier) concluded that the event predicted by Daniel 8:14 was not the second coming, but rather Christ's entrance into the Most Holy Place of the heavenly sanctuary. as depicted in Daniel 7.

In particular, Hiram Edson had a vision as he crossed a cornfield on the morning after the Great Disappointment (Oct 23, 1844) , a revelation which led indicated that Christ had gone into the Most Holy Place of the Hebrew 8 - Sanctuary in heaven. That led one group of Adventists to a series of Bible studies with other Millerites to confirm the validity of his solution.

(Note that Ellen Harmon was 16 in October of 1844 and had no visions on the subject of the judgment nor was she considered the "leader" of anything)

The Bible study that resulted became the foundation for the Adventist doctrine of the sanctuary, and the people who held it became the nucleus of what would emerge from other "Adventist" groups as the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Edson's revelation was greatly encouraging for the Adventists.

A few years later Ellen White would write, "The scripture which above all others had been both the foundation and the central pillar of the advent faith, was the declaration, 'Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed'" (quoting Daniel 8:14).

James White, Crosier, and also Uriah Smith supported the belief and about 50 people were involved in the "Sabbath conferences" Bible study that worked out the details for the founding doctrines of the church.

"Over time, Adventists came to believe that the "cleansing" of the heavenly sanctuary involves a work of judgment as depicted in the courtroom scene of Daniel 7:9-12 immediately prior to the second coming of Christ described in Daniel 7:13-14. In the 1850s, J. N. Loughborough and Uriah Smith began to teach that a judgment had begun in 1844 when Christ entered the Most Holy Place. Subsequently, in 1857, James White wrote in the Review and Herald (now the Adventist Review) that an "investigative judgment" was taking place in heaven, in which the lives of professed believers would pass in review before God.[32] This is the first time that the phrase "investigative judgment" was used."

This reminds me of the various hidden truths that had "disappeared" for millenia, only to be "revealed" to latter-day prophets and prophetesses in the nineteenth century through the present time.

mmksparbud · Oct 8, 2019

bbbbbbb said:
Apparently you did not read my post entirely. I stated that your denomination traditionally has relied on Mrs. White for its distinctive dogmas. Without her none of those dogmas which distinguished your denomination from all other denominations would exist. For example, the dogma of the Investigative Judgement is unique to her and to your denomination. She initiated it and your denomination has followed it.

Again, you have it wrong--it was not her---it was a group of men and women who studied the bible, it did not come from her imagination. It was that group after the 2nd coming did not happen that went back to the bible to trace what "the cleansing of the sanctuary" had really meant biblically. Post #158 has it.

Make a list of all your SDA doctrines, you will not find that combo in the Early Church Fathers, Who

Senior Veteran

Junior Member

Junior Member

Junior Member

Junior Member

Junior Member

Senior Veteran

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Junior Member

Well-Known Member

Junior Member

Junior Member

Junior Member

Well-Known Member

Junior Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency