This is an article which I just came across. It deals with some LCMS creating a new creed and then having joint fellowship with the LDS in a service. It showcases why we shouldn't mess with the three creeds.
http://www.reclaimingwalther.org/articles/jmc00035.htm
Here's an excerpt of the most interesting part:
Meeting With the Mormons And Their Letter of Fellowship
After attending the September and November meetings of the Bi-circuit, this writer could not get the Bi-circuit to address his concerns on fantasy creeds. They simply ignored my speeches and threats that members of Redeemer were instructed to walk out of their communion services if they heard a creed they did not know. In total frustration this author then sent the new creed they had confessed to the local Mormon bishop and asked for a meeting and possible fellowship based on the new creed. (It will be easier for this writer to refer to himself in the third person for the remainder of the article.)
OnMonday, December 9, at 3:00 p.m., a meeting was held at Redeemer Lutheran Church, St. Clair Shores, Michigan, between area LCMS pastors and representatives of the Mormon Church. The purpose of the meeting was to discuss the possibility of fellowship with the Mormon Church based on the new creed confessed during the Bi-Circuit worship service with Holy Communion on June 10, 1996, in <name withheld>, Michigan.
Attending the meeting for the Mormons was Ward First Counsel and theologian, Mr. Donald Perkins, Elder Tucker, Elder Pulsipher, Virginia Tuten; for the Lutherans - Pastor Jack Cascione, Pastor David Ulm, Elder from Redeemer Lutheran Church, Jerry Schott.
The meeting began with Mr. Donald Perkins, who is also a trial lawyer in Mount Clemens, presenting his written approval of the new creed confessed at the Bi-Circuit worship service on June 10, 1996. The Mormons accepted the new creed because it did not contain the words "of one substance with the Father," as does the Nicene Creed, which they reject.
At the meeting, Mr. Donald Perkins first presented their letter of agreement and stated that he loved Jesus and believed the entire Bible to be Gods Word. During the meeting he said he approved of the new creed as the basis for fellowship in a joint worship service with Lutherans as long as the Nicene Creed was not confessed.
During the meeting, Mr. Perkins observed that Cascione was a literalist and really didnt like the new creed. He suspected that Cascione thought it was so watered down that a Mormon or Jehovahs Witness could confess it. Cascione agreed, but said that in his Bi-Circuit at least ten of the fourteen pastors who were present for that communion service in June would agree with Mr. Perkins in practice. Cascione also informed Perkins that confessing new creeds is now a common practice in the LCMS and the possibilities for fellowship with the Missouri Synod and Mormons is now the best it has ever been.
Perkins and Cascione engaged in a spirited discussion on the two natures of Christ. Perkins agreed that passages like John 1:14 could be used to support the view that Christ is equal with God. However, he said the majority of passages show Christs subordination. Therefore, Perkins said the Mormons believe that Christ must be entirely subordinate. Being both equal to God and subordinate according to His humanity at the same time is not an option for Mormons. He also felt that the Mormon view of the Lords Supper is closer to the Baptists, and that the Lutherans are closer to the Catholics on that point.
Response from the Mormons:
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints
East Shores Ward
Bloomfield Hills Michigan Stake
November 16, 1996
Redeemer Lutheran Church
ATTN: Jack Cascione
30003 Jefferson Avenue
St. Clair Shores, MI 48082
RE: Ltr dtd. 8/22/96 sbjt. New Creed
Dear Pastor Cascione:
Thank you for soliciting the input of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormon) as to your Synods proposed new creed for the Lords Supper.
The nature of our Churchs centralized hierarchy prevents us from offering you any sort of official statement as to our position on such a matter. Permit me, however, speaking as a member of the presiding council of our local organization only, to comment on your proposed change from the perspective of Mormon theology.
We do not accept the Nicene Creed as a correct formulation of Christian truth primarily in one matter only---the assertion that the Lord Jesus Christ is "of one substance" with the Father. On the contrary, we believe a correct reading of New Testament scripture is that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three distinct persons, one in purpose, but not in bodily substance. We further believe the Father and Son are each personages of flesh and bones, while the Holy Ghost, as the third member of the Godhead, is a personage of spirit.
To that extent, therefore, the new creed which your Bi-Circuit is now using is more accurate from our perspective than the Nicene Creed, since your new creed avoids the formulation of the Son being of one substance with the Father.
Again, while the above does not represent an official Church statement of any sort, I believe it stands as an accurate statement of Mormon (LDS) belief.
Let me add, additionally. that I personally find the new creed to be quite appealing in its poetic expression. I like its symmetry in giving praise and confession separately to each member of the Godhead. I find it to be quite spiritually satisfying, and I make this comment as someone who has always appreciated what I regarded as the beauty of the old Nicene Creed as well. I have visited Lutheran services on a number of occasions over the years, including those of the Missouri Synod, and have always enjoyed the spirit I found expressed therein.
For your information, I have enclosed the Sacrament prayers which the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints uses each Sunday in our own celebration of the Lords Supper.
We appreciate your solicitation of our views, and if we can provide additional information, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Very truly yours,
Donald N. Perkins
1st Counselor, East Shores Ward Bishopric
CC: K. Sorensen, D. Myers
SACRAMENT PRAYER OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS OFFERED OVER THE WATER
O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this water to the souls of all those who drink of it, that they may do it in remembrance of the blood of thy Son, which was shed for them; that they may witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they do always remember him, that they may have his Spirit to be with them. Amen
SACRAMENT PRAYER OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS OFFERED OVER THE BREAD
O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this bread to the souls of all those who partake of it, that they may eat in remembrance of the body of thy Son, and witness unto thee, O God the Eternal Father, that they are willing to take upon them the name of thy Son, and always remember him and keep his commandments which he has given them; that they may always have his Spirit to be with them. Amen."
Show Down With the Bi-Circuit
On January 13, 1997 Pastor Jack Cascione presented the above proposal of fellowship with Mormon Church based on the Bi-Circuits creed to the Bi-Circuit. Mormons dont play the intellectual games of separating faith from public confession as commonly practiced in the LCMS. In other words the Mormons believed the pastors meant what they confessed. The pastors present became visibly upset and suspended the regular order of business. During the meeting, Cascione was called divisive and told that he had violated Matthew 18. Cascione stated that a difference on the three Creeds and any other that a pastor dreams up cant be a violation of Matthew 18 because the Creeds are public, not private, doctrine.
The pastors voted to have a special meeting just to deal with the issue of how many Creeds could be confessed at a communion service. They also voted to hold a special preliminary meeting with two Circuit Counselors, Cascione, and the pastor who wrote the new creed, to draw up the agenda for that meeting.
At the preliminary meeting, after two hours of debate, the following resolution was drawn up for a vote at the special Bi-Circuit meeting. "Whenever a Creed is confessed at a communion service it will be one of the three ecumenical Creeds."
The special Bi-Circuit meeting opened on Monday, January 27, at St. Johns Lutheran Church in Fraser, with seventeen pastors present. One pastor requested that the conversation in the meeting be kept confidential, that is, not appear in print or get back to the congregations. Cascione responded, "Not a chance. If you dont want your opinions on the three Creeds known, then stay in the closet. You all took your ordination vows in public; now, you want what you really believe about the Creeds kept private." Cascione vowed to file charges of heresy against any pastor who would not vote for the resolution as written.
An hour and a half debate followed these opening remarks. There were charges of legalism, violation of Article X of the Formula of Concord on adiaphora, claims that the three Creeds were not inspired, that use of a hymn in place of a Creed was accepted practice in LW Divine Service III, and that pastors have freedom to write their own liturgies. There were also questions about the purpose of Creeds, and more.
Cascione responded that, as a Synod, we had already voted on the liturgies in Convention according to Article VI, Section 4. He said that was how we said we would walk together. There is no adiaphora in time of a controversy, according to the Formula, Article X. The same people who approved and wrote the Creeds at Nicea also decided which books were supposed to be in the Bible. If they didnt know what they believed about the Bible as stated in the Nicene Creed, then how can we be sure we have the right books in the Bible?
We have officially agreed on the Creeds as our public definition of the Gospel. When the Creeds are changed, the Gospel is changed. Divine Service III does recommend a hymn, but it says it is a hymn, not a Creed. We dont tell the people in the church a hymn is our official Creed or statement of faith. There are only three Creeds and no hymns in the Book of Concord. No pastor has been asked to swear to the words of a hymn in the Book of Concord.
If we use Luthers explanation of the three articles we have already agreed on that language and we all know they are not the Creed. But telling lay people that something the pastor wrote is "The Creed" is outright deception. Congregations care very little if the pastor makes up a new liturgy, but the Creeds are not liturgy. They are the foundation of the LCMS. Without the Creeds, the Augsburg Confession and the LCMS do not exist.
There was brisk debate. The pastor who wrote the new creed that Cascione despised and the Mormons loved withdrew it. He apologized and said it was a mistake. He then began defending the importance of the Creeds and their use to the other pastors. He had previously written a letter saying Cascione was a sinner in need of repentance. Cascione asked if the pastor had a conversion experience. The pastor replied he always agreed with what Cascione was saying about the Creeds, he just did not approve of Casciones methods. At that point Cascione was not about to argue. A man needs space to retreat.
Other pastors began to defend the use of the three Creeds and what Cascione had done. One of the Circuit Counselors called for a vote on the resolution and reminded those present that Cascione would charge anyone who disagreed with heresy. All seventeen pastors present stood up and voted yes to the resolution.
The resolution was written so that no one was forced to use a Creed during a communion service. This is why the word "whenever" was used. Some of the pastors wanted to make the use of a Creed standard practice, but that would not have passed. The wording also permitted the use of properly labeled hymns and sections of the Catechism in place of the Creed.
The use of the Creeds was only recommended for a communion service because, at the present time, there is no way to tell if a worship service is actually taking place in the LCMS unless the Lords Supper is served. Even in the LCMS conventions the Lords Supper is served on Saturday evening, and on Sunday morning they hold a service of "Celebration" with women speakers, dancers, etc., because it is not a worship service. It should also be noted that the Synod cannot hold a communion service unless it is conducted by a guest pastor from a local congregation. According to official LCMS doctrine only the local congregation is a church and not the LCMS.
If a pastor wants to write a creed for a non-worship service, there cant possibly be any charges of heresy because we cant prove it was worship. Cascione believes that "religious services" intentionally designed not to be "worship services" are blasphemy and a violation of the Second Commandment. They lead people to think they are worshipping God, when there is actually no intention of invoking His presence and seeking His gifts of repentance, forgiveness, and the Holy Spirit.
The pastors also discussed the possibility of not only rewriting Creeds, but also not rewriting the Lords Prayer and the Gospel lesson. All this is possible without protest in a non-communion setting. It was pointed out that every hymn and every sermon is actually a re-write of the Creeds. Casciones view is that the use of three and only three Creeds is part of every LCMS congregations constitution.
The meeting closed with prayer. A request was made that Cascione publish that the Bi-Circuit was now in agreement. Pastors from two congregations were not present. Cascione was humbled by the many expressions of agreement and apologies after the meeting. He is not any better than any of them. Some pastors said they really hadnt understood the issues and how important the use of these Creeds are. Another pastor observed that the Church Growth Movement had affected their practice more than they realized. Others said they were sorry for not speaking up sooner. Cascione was speechless. This writer cannot read these words without being filled with emotion and thanks to a gracious God.
http://www.reclaimingwalther.org/articles/jmc00035.htm
Here's an excerpt of the most interesting part:
Meeting With the Mormons And Their Letter of Fellowship
After attending the September and November meetings of the Bi-circuit, this writer could not get the Bi-circuit to address his concerns on fantasy creeds. They simply ignored my speeches and threats that members of Redeemer were instructed to walk out of their communion services if they heard a creed they did not know. In total frustration this author then sent the new creed they had confessed to the local Mormon bishop and asked for a meeting and possible fellowship based on the new creed. (It will be easier for this writer to refer to himself in the third person for the remainder of the article.)
OnMonday, December 9, at 3:00 p.m., a meeting was held at Redeemer Lutheran Church, St. Clair Shores, Michigan, between area LCMS pastors and representatives of the Mormon Church. The purpose of the meeting was to discuss the possibility of fellowship with the Mormon Church based on the new creed confessed during the Bi-Circuit worship service with Holy Communion on June 10, 1996, in <name withheld>, Michigan.
Attending the meeting for the Mormons was Ward First Counsel and theologian, Mr. Donald Perkins, Elder Tucker, Elder Pulsipher, Virginia Tuten; for the Lutherans - Pastor Jack Cascione, Pastor David Ulm, Elder from Redeemer Lutheran Church, Jerry Schott.
The meeting began with Mr. Donald Perkins, who is also a trial lawyer in Mount Clemens, presenting his written approval of the new creed confessed at the Bi-Circuit worship service on June 10, 1996. The Mormons accepted the new creed because it did not contain the words "of one substance with the Father," as does the Nicene Creed, which they reject.
At the meeting, Mr. Donald Perkins first presented their letter of agreement and stated that he loved Jesus and believed the entire Bible to be Gods Word. During the meeting he said he approved of the new creed as the basis for fellowship in a joint worship service with Lutherans as long as the Nicene Creed was not confessed.
During the meeting, Mr. Perkins observed that Cascione was a literalist and really didnt like the new creed. He suspected that Cascione thought it was so watered down that a Mormon or Jehovahs Witness could confess it. Cascione agreed, but said that in his Bi-Circuit at least ten of the fourteen pastors who were present for that communion service in June would agree with Mr. Perkins in practice. Cascione also informed Perkins that confessing new creeds is now a common practice in the LCMS and the possibilities for fellowship with the Missouri Synod and Mormons is now the best it has ever been.
Perkins and Cascione engaged in a spirited discussion on the two natures of Christ. Perkins agreed that passages like John 1:14 could be used to support the view that Christ is equal with God. However, he said the majority of passages show Christs subordination. Therefore, Perkins said the Mormons believe that Christ must be entirely subordinate. Being both equal to God and subordinate according to His humanity at the same time is not an option for Mormons. He also felt that the Mormon view of the Lords Supper is closer to the Baptists, and that the Lutherans are closer to the Catholics on that point.
Response from the Mormons:
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints
East Shores Ward
Bloomfield Hills Michigan Stake
November 16, 1996
Redeemer Lutheran Church
ATTN: Jack Cascione
30003 Jefferson Avenue
St. Clair Shores, MI 48082
RE: Ltr dtd. 8/22/96 sbjt. New Creed
Dear Pastor Cascione:
Thank you for soliciting the input of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormon) as to your Synods proposed new creed for the Lords Supper.
The nature of our Churchs centralized hierarchy prevents us from offering you any sort of official statement as to our position on such a matter. Permit me, however, speaking as a member of the presiding council of our local organization only, to comment on your proposed change from the perspective of Mormon theology.
We do not accept the Nicene Creed as a correct formulation of Christian truth primarily in one matter only---the assertion that the Lord Jesus Christ is "of one substance" with the Father. On the contrary, we believe a correct reading of New Testament scripture is that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three distinct persons, one in purpose, but not in bodily substance. We further believe the Father and Son are each personages of flesh and bones, while the Holy Ghost, as the third member of the Godhead, is a personage of spirit.
To that extent, therefore, the new creed which your Bi-Circuit is now using is more accurate from our perspective than the Nicene Creed, since your new creed avoids the formulation of the Son being of one substance with the Father.
Again, while the above does not represent an official Church statement of any sort, I believe it stands as an accurate statement of Mormon (LDS) belief.
Let me add, additionally. that I personally find the new creed to be quite appealing in its poetic expression. I like its symmetry in giving praise and confession separately to each member of the Godhead. I find it to be quite spiritually satisfying, and I make this comment as someone who has always appreciated what I regarded as the beauty of the old Nicene Creed as well. I have visited Lutheran services on a number of occasions over the years, including those of the Missouri Synod, and have always enjoyed the spirit I found expressed therein.
For your information, I have enclosed the Sacrament prayers which the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints uses each Sunday in our own celebration of the Lords Supper.
We appreciate your solicitation of our views, and if we can provide additional information, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Very truly yours,
Donald N. Perkins
1st Counselor, East Shores Ward Bishopric
CC: K. Sorensen, D. Myers
SACRAMENT PRAYER OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS OFFERED OVER THE WATER
O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this water to the souls of all those who drink of it, that they may do it in remembrance of the blood of thy Son, which was shed for them; that they may witness unto thee, O God, the Eternal Father, that they do always remember him, that they may have his Spirit to be with them. Amen
SACRAMENT PRAYER OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS OFFERED OVER THE BREAD
O God, the Eternal Father, we ask thee in the name of thy Son, Jesus Christ, to bless and sanctify this bread to the souls of all those who partake of it, that they may eat in remembrance of the body of thy Son, and witness unto thee, O God the Eternal Father, that they are willing to take upon them the name of thy Son, and always remember him and keep his commandments which he has given them; that they may always have his Spirit to be with them. Amen."
Show Down With the Bi-Circuit
On January 13, 1997 Pastor Jack Cascione presented the above proposal of fellowship with Mormon Church based on the Bi-Circuits creed to the Bi-Circuit. Mormons dont play the intellectual games of separating faith from public confession as commonly practiced in the LCMS. In other words the Mormons believed the pastors meant what they confessed. The pastors present became visibly upset and suspended the regular order of business. During the meeting, Cascione was called divisive and told that he had violated Matthew 18. Cascione stated that a difference on the three Creeds and any other that a pastor dreams up cant be a violation of Matthew 18 because the Creeds are public, not private, doctrine.
The pastors voted to have a special meeting just to deal with the issue of how many Creeds could be confessed at a communion service. They also voted to hold a special preliminary meeting with two Circuit Counselors, Cascione, and the pastor who wrote the new creed, to draw up the agenda for that meeting.
At the preliminary meeting, after two hours of debate, the following resolution was drawn up for a vote at the special Bi-Circuit meeting. "Whenever a Creed is confessed at a communion service it will be one of the three ecumenical Creeds."
The special Bi-Circuit meeting opened on Monday, January 27, at St. Johns Lutheran Church in Fraser, with seventeen pastors present. One pastor requested that the conversation in the meeting be kept confidential, that is, not appear in print or get back to the congregations. Cascione responded, "Not a chance. If you dont want your opinions on the three Creeds known, then stay in the closet. You all took your ordination vows in public; now, you want what you really believe about the Creeds kept private." Cascione vowed to file charges of heresy against any pastor who would not vote for the resolution as written.
An hour and a half debate followed these opening remarks. There were charges of legalism, violation of Article X of the Formula of Concord on adiaphora, claims that the three Creeds were not inspired, that use of a hymn in place of a Creed was accepted practice in LW Divine Service III, and that pastors have freedom to write their own liturgies. There were also questions about the purpose of Creeds, and more.
Cascione responded that, as a Synod, we had already voted on the liturgies in Convention according to Article VI, Section 4. He said that was how we said we would walk together. There is no adiaphora in time of a controversy, according to the Formula, Article X. The same people who approved and wrote the Creeds at Nicea also decided which books were supposed to be in the Bible. If they didnt know what they believed about the Bible as stated in the Nicene Creed, then how can we be sure we have the right books in the Bible?
We have officially agreed on the Creeds as our public definition of the Gospel. When the Creeds are changed, the Gospel is changed. Divine Service III does recommend a hymn, but it says it is a hymn, not a Creed. We dont tell the people in the church a hymn is our official Creed or statement of faith. There are only three Creeds and no hymns in the Book of Concord. No pastor has been asked to swear to the words of a hymn in the Book of Concord.
If we use Luthers explanation of the three articles we have already agreed on that language and we all know they are not the Creed. But telling lay people that something the pastor wrote is "The Creed" is outright deception. Congregations care very little if the pastor makes up a new liturgy, but the Creeds are not liturgy. They are the foundation of the LCMS. Without the Creeds, the Augsburg Confession and the LCMS do not exist.
There was brisk debate. The pastor who wrote the new creed that Cascione despised and the Mormons loved withdrew it. He apologized and said it was a mistake. He then began defending the importance of the Creeds and their use to the other pastors. He had previously written a letter saying Cascione was a sinner in need of repentance. Cascione asked if the pastor had a conversion experience. The pastor replied he always agreed with what Cascione was saying about the Creeds, he just did not approve of Casciones methods. At that point Cascione was not about to argue. A man needs space to retreat.
Other pastors began to defend the use of the three Creeds and what Cascione had done. One of the Circuit Counselors called for a vote on the resolution and reminded those present that Cascione would charge anyone who disagreed with heresy. All seventeen pastors present stood up and voted yes to the resolution.
The resolution was written so that no one was forced to use a Creed during a communion service. This is why the word "whenever" was used. Some of the pastors wanted to make the use of a Creed standard practice, but that would not have passed. The wording also permitted the use of properly labeled hymns and sections of the Catechism in place of the Creed.
The use of the Creeds was only recommended for a communion service because, at the present time, there is no way to tell if a worship service is actually taking place in the LCMS unless the Lords Supper is served. Even in the LCMS conventions the Lords Supper is served on Saturday evening, and on Sunday morning they hold a service of "Celebration" with women speakers, dancers, etc., because it is not a worship service. It should also be noted that the Synod cannot hold a communion service unless it is conducted by a guest pastor from a local congregation. According to official LCMS doctrine only the local congregation is a church and not the LCMS.
If a pastor wants to write a creed for a non-worship service, there cant possibly be any charges of heresy because we cant prove it was worship. Cascione believes that "religious services" intentionally designed not to be "worship services" are blasphemy and a violation of the Second Commandment. They lead people to think they are worshipping God, when there is actually no intention of invoking His presence and seeking His gifts of repentance, forgiveness, and the Holy Spirit.
The pastors also discussed the possibility of not only rewriting Creeds, but also not rewriting the Lords Prayer and the Gospel lesson. All this is possible without protest in a non-communion setting. It was pointed out that every hymn and every sermon is actually a re-write of the Creeds. Casciones view is that the use of three and only three Creeds is part of every LCMS congregations constitution.
The meeting closed with prayer. A request was made that Cascione publish that the Bi-Circuit was now in agreement. Pastors from two congregations were not present. Cascione was humbled by the many expressions of agreement and apologies after the meeting. He is not any better than any of them. Some pastors said they really hadnt understood the issues and how important the use of these Creeds are. Another pastor observed that the Church Growth Movement had affected their practice more than they realized. Others said they were sorry for not speaking up sooner. Cascione was speechless. This writer cannot read these words without being filled with emotion and thanks to a gracious God.