Lutheran's and Calvinism

simonpeter said:

Doesn't one follow the other? We're so dead in sin that we can only reject God. So it logically follows that we cannot make any decision to accept God. How is this Calvinist?

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That statement is not Calvinist at all. The Calvinist will assume that since God is the one who saves, then God must also be the one who condemns. We know by Scripture that this is untrue.

DaRev said:

That statement is not Calvinist at all. The Calvinist will assume that since God is the one who saves, then God must also be the one who condemns. We know by Scripture that this is untrue.

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Then who condemns?

simonpeter said:

Then who condemns?

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We condemn ourselves. In fact, our very nature is condemnable.

DaRev said:

We condemn ourselves. In fact, our very nature is condemnable.

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Yes, but God is powerful enough to save us despite our 'condemnable' nature. Yet he doesn't save everyone.

God condemns sin. And He condemns the vehicles of sin; i.e. the human person, if they are not in Christ.

I find that most Lutherans don't really even know how to talk about this stuff, and maybe that's as it should be when we see the terrible anxiety the doctrine of election causes our Calvinist brethren with their constant wondering about whether they are elect or not.

We rejoice in an alien righteousness. We look to Christ and we know His voice because we are the sheep of His fold. There is no fear when we are with Him. He bespeaks us righteous and is strong to save.

Chemnitz

God condemns sin. And He condemns the vehicles of sin; i.e. the human person, if they are not in Christ.

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If you want to get technicial its Christ Jesus who condemns those without faith, He is our judge, not The Father.

Rev 22:12 "Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.
Rev 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
Rev 22:14 "Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
Rev 22:16 "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

We rejoice in an alien righteousness.

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Jim47 said:

I really doubt there is a single Lutheran here who has condemned a Calvanist, that is a pretty shallow statement. Just because we prove from scripture that their teaching is incorrect doesn't mean that "we" or Jesus has condemned them. It is the danger in holding to false beliefs that can offer Satan a foot hold in their faith and weaken them.

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I am not sure what you're talking about. Where have I said that Lutherans "condemn" anybody?

Chemnitz said:

I am not sure what you're talking about. Where have I said that Lutherans "condemn" anybody?

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My mistake, I'll edit

simonpeter said:

Yes, but God is powerful enough to save us despite our 'condemnable' nature. Yet he doesn't save everyone.

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John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

God, by His grace and through the Holy Spirit, has given us the gift of faith, the ability to believe. This gift is presented to us in the Gospel (Romans 10:17). Those who acknowledge this gift and believe in Christ are saved by God's work through Christ. This is passive on our part, it is done to and for us without any work or participation on our part. Those who reject this gift are "condemned already" because by nature humans are sinful. This is an active work on our part.
We are saved by God's work in Christ. We are condemned by our own effort.

There are two kinds of Christian righteousness, just as man’s sin is of two kinds. The first is alien righteousness, that is the righteousness of another, instilled from without. This is the righteousness of Christ by which he justifies though faith, as it is written in I Cor. 1:30: “whom God made our wisdom, our righteousness and sanctification and redemption.”

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Luther in a sermon, "Two Kinds of Righteousness"

I think another issue here is that election within the Calvinist system happens before time and outside of history. Lutherans emphasize the active grace. God saves you now.

I hate to try to over use logic here (since I think that is the flaw that led Calvin down the line of double election) but look at it this way:
Calvinists imagine that the fate of salvation/condemnation happens before all time for God's glory. Thus before time God decides who will be saved and who will be condemned, as if everyone started in one pile and he moved them into two separate ones (saved and condemned).

Lutherans I think would imagine it more as all people are in the condemned pile already because of our sin and the sins of our father Adam. Election is not the process of God moving people into the condemned pile, they were already there. Election is the process of God moving you to the elect pile.

We preach grace and forgiveness not before time, not even in the past historically, but grace in the moment. God's promise for you now. Baptism is a means of grace because in that act God makes a promise then and there, it does not signify a past event. The activeness of God and God's grace in Lutheranism I believe is what sets it apart theologically from Calvinism.
This can also be seen in Confession. Lutherans practice absolution, declaring forgiveness of sins in the moment, compared to the reformed traditions which typically follow confession with an "assurance of forgiveness". They don't declare you forgiven, but appeal to a previous forgiveness as God's people.