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Lutheran's and Calvinism

G

GratiaCorpusChristi

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How does that logic work?

Can you give me a syllogism or necessary inference on that?

In fact, it would be helpful if you would simply flush out what you mean by "is always in control." That is a very imprecise statement.

Because there is nothing about "God created the world" that necessary implies "he has foreordained every event," so I'm assuming that the argument rests on "always in control."

For instance, are you saying that God is in control (= predetermining) sinful acts?
 
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RadMan

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Wouldn't that imply man is more powerful than God?
No but again we're not robots. We make decisions on our whole life. Our whole history is God turning us loose to see how great we can screw up. Look at the Israelites. Look at todays societies. Our freedom under Christ is to make up our mind and if we decide we don't want His saving grace then we can reject him.
 
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ziggy29

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Since God created the world and is always in control, wouldn't it be logical to assume that he has foreordained every event, including every person's repentance, faith etc.?
If that were true, then God would be "foreordaining" murder, rape, child molestation, robbery and assault among other things. I refuse to believe that a righteous God would do that.

In that sense it's my belief that predestination is not compatible with the existence of evil, because it would require that God is complicit in acts of evil. (Yes, I know about God hardening Pharoah's heart, but my belief and hope is that Jesus Christ died for us so God would not instill malice in our hearts and give us free will to glorify Him through faith.)
 
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simonpeter

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If that were true, then God would be "foreordaining" murder, rape, child molestation, robbery and assault among other things.

If he is not foreordaining them, then he is allowing them to happen without any interference. People may argue that is even worse.
 
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C

Chemnitz

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I am not at all certain that this is something Lutherans should be bothered by. The Bible is full of examples of God bringing destruction upon people. If we say, "but they were sinners" it begs the question, how then do they differ from all the people these things "happen to", or from us for that matter?

Luther often spoke of the Deus Absconditus, the hidden God, and this was more than just an insight into God's unknowableness, it had a great deal to do with the often ineffable nature of God's evident will.

What we must not do though, and what Calvinists do, is seek to think God's thoughts after Him and explain His "motivation". There is a point at which we should shut our mouths.
 
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Dannawally

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How can we "decide" if we want to accept saving grace or not if we are "dead in trespasses and sin"? Can a drowned man decide he wants to be rescued by grabbing the offered life preserver? Everyone is an enemy of God in his natural state. "No one comes unto me unless the Father draws him" (Jn 6:44). It's only by supernatural intervention that one receives saving grace.
 
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seajoy

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Radman didn't say we can decide to accept. He said we can reject.

Very Calvinist of you to rationalize that if one is true the other must be as well.
You took the words right off of my fingers. And aren't guests supposed to be here to ask questions and not "tell us like it is?"
 
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Zecryphon

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If he is not foreordaining them, then he is allowing them to happen without any interference. People may argue that is even worse.

Then what does that say about the person who makes such a claim? Tells me they're looking for any reason to not follow God or do as He has instructed. They're basically looking for justification for their own rebellion.
 
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Zecryphon

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Adam and Eve introduced sin into the world, not God.

But the counter-argument from the people that follow SimonPeter's line of thinking is "Who created Adam and Eve? If God is all-knowing, then He would have known that they would sin. So God created evil beings.
 
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seajoy

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But the counter-argument from the people that follow SimonPeter's line of thinking is "Who created Adam and Eve? If God is all-knowing, then He would have known that they would sin. So God created evil beings.
Oh good grief - glad I'm too dumb to figure out questions like that.
 
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Zecryphon

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You took the words right off of my fingers. And aren't guests supposed to be here to ask questions and not "tell us like it is?"

Yeah, but I don't know if anything has changed around CF as to what happens when a mod sees a post like the one you're referring to. Will the appropriate staff team take action on it on their own or will they wait for someone to report it before they ponder for two or three weeks if an infraction has occurred, then ponder for a week as to what to do about it and add another week to figure out who sends the PM. Is that still how it works or do they have a more efficient system in place now?
 
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Zecryphon

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Oh good grief - glad I'm too dumb to figure out questions like that.

Yeah, these people just go back further and further until they find something they can "nail" God on, which they will morally disagree with, and use their moral outrage over what God has done to justify their rebellion and unbelief.
 
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simonpeter

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Radman didn't say we can decide to accept. He said we can reject.

Very Calvinist of you to rationalize that if one is true the other must be as well.

Doesn't one follow the other? We're so dead in sin that we can only reject God. So it logically follows that we cannot make any decision to accept God. How is this Calvinist? Isn't this logic 101?
 
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Dannawally

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Doesn't one follow the other? We're so dead in sin that we can only reject God. So it logically follows that we cannot make any decision to accept God. How is this Calvinist? Isn't this logic 101?

Thanks, simonpeter. Sounds like at least one person here has read Luther's Bondage of the Will.
 
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simonpeter

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Then what does that say about the person who makes such a claim? Tells me they're looking for any reason to not follow God or do as He has instructed. They're basically looking for justification for their own rebellion.

No, it is a fair question. Why does God allow evil knowing well it is going to hurt people? God allowed Joseph's brothers to do what they did with Joseph. But the very same evil in the end turned out to be in Joseph's favor. So maybe, we can say God foreordains evil but only because it turns out to be good in the end.
 
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