Love???

Grega · Nov 29, 2008

This is a thread inspired by a dead-end encountered in my "...define perfect..." thread

What do you mean by the word love???
Assuming this is difficult to define what then is meant by:
god loves us???...and that he loves us unconditionally?...and that his love for us is greater than any other entity's love?

Let me give you an example of how I might define one type of love in the interests of showing how it is a vague and consequently useless (to me at least) term.

I might say I love my mother...but what I actually mean is:

I am extremely grateful to her for ensuring that I have been well nourished, well attended to, well educated, looked after etc...
She is a very important person to me, more so than anyone else.
I don't want her to die...and I imagine I'll be as devastated when she does as I was when my dad died
I am more concerned when she is unwell than I am if say a friend is unwell
If she required help or a favour from me I would do it (if I am able to) without any expectation of recompense. (note: for those who wish to challenge me on this that to me, repayment of a £5 loan is not a reward!)
I enjoy her company and am glad that she enjoys my company
others I may think of and include later...

At such points where I have told my mum I lover her I have shotgunned a massive range of cncepts from which she will cherrypick the ones which seem most relevant to her and discard the rest...this is done without actually thinking about it (and what she takes love to mean is probably different in some way from what I intended)

Now how does that version of love above correlate with your god's version of love?

Is he in some way grateful to me?...does he really really not want me to die? am I more important to Him than anyone else?
I am sure your answer would be no to these questions.

Now ask yourself what does it mean for a bluebottle to love its larvae...or for mummy dog to love baby dog, you might hold that such concepts don't exist between animals, but that needs to be qualified by stating exactly what it is that doesn't exst between animals!

Does it even make any iota of sense to talk about God's love without actually saying what it is in concrete terms???

Please don't respond with such things as "Jesus died on the cross for you...this is how he loves you" etc... for I don't see how your god taking a small sojourn to the physical realm and then exiting from it in in a manner in which he knew would occur is the embodiment of anything I hold to be virtuous let alone this slippery word you call "love", this act doesn't make a blind bit of sense to me and certainly doesn't improve my unerstanding of the word.

Chesterton · Nov 29, 2008

You want someone to say what love is in concrete terms? Thats a tall order, or at least I know I cant do it, but heres a couple of thoughts:

Whenever there are two or more persons present, there is something invisible created between them. You could call it spirit, mood, atmosphere, or some word like that.

If you go to a nightclub, and see people drinking, dancing, laughing, having fun, you will recognize a certain mood or spirit in the air. If you walk in on a business meeting, with several people sitting around a table discussing financial reports, youll also recognize a certain different mood. If you board a bus and see two strangers sitting far apart and not talking to each other, there is another mood. If you see a mother and father gazing at their newborn baby, theres a mood there.

Before there was a universe or any creature, there was a mood in the eternal places, a spirit of love. There was/is/will always be an eternal Spirit - Love is the Spirit, God is Spirit, God is Love. The Triune God is Love, because the Father loves the Son, the Son loves the Father, and what proceeds forth is the Spirit of Love, the Spirit of God.

And God has this love for us humans. But it is said to be greater than we can even imagine, and we cant express what we cant imagine. We have to talk about the pale imitations, the things we know. And you mentioned the biological love of lower animals, you know, even our Lord spoke in those terms to describe His love: O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

I hope someone can respond with a good definition of love, but if you want to read an excellent exposition of what love is about, and what its like, Id suggest reading the 13th chapter of 1 Corinthians.

ephraimanesti · Nov 29, 2008

Grega said:
This is a thread inspired by a dead-end encountered in my "...define perfect..." thread

What do you mean by the word love???
Assuming this is difficult to define what then is meant by:
god loves us???...and that he loves us unconditionally?...and that his love for us is greater than any other entity's love?

MY BROTHER,

The reason why atheists have such a hard time in dealing with Love in its spiritual essence is that they have turned their back of the source of all Love--in its "agape" sense--even going so far to deny His very existence, and thus have no means of seeing beyond "love" as defined by our decidedly UNloving society, where the same word is used for "I love my wife" as for "I love pizza," let alone personally experiencing it. Of course they are confused--just as a blind man would be when someone attempts to explain the beauty of a sunset to them.

The only way to understand the TRUE definition of "Love" is to have experienced it oneself--directly from the Hand of God--through Jesus by means of the Holy Spirit. Definitions will never replace experience!

A BOND-SLAVE OF CHRIST,
ephraim

aiki · Nov 30, 2008

What do you mean by the word love???

I can mean a variety of things. Which kind of love are you talking about?

Assuming this is difficult to define what then is meant by:
god loves us???...and that he loves us unconditionally?...and that his love for us is greater than any other entity's love?

First off, I don't believe the Bible teaches that God loves us "unconditionally." That is a popular idea, but not a biblical one. God doesn't accept us "just the way we are." Until we are washed clean by the blood of Christ by faith in him as Saviour and Lord, God does not accept us. In fact, until we are "accepted in the beloved" we stand under God's terrible wrath.

God's love is greater than any other's because of its perfectness. It is perfectly shaped and expressed by His mercy, holiness, and justice.

Now how does that version of love above correlate with your god's version of love?

You assume there is a correlation between the kind of human "love" you've described and God's. But God isn't a human. You want a picture of God's love? Look at what Christ did on the cross for you.

You might also consider the following:

1 Corinthians 13:4-8 (NKJV)
4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up;
5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil;
6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth;
7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.

1 John 4:7-11 (NKJV)
7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.
8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.
9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him.
10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.

Please don't respond with such things as "Jesus died on the cross for you...this is how he loves you" etc... for I don't see how your god taking a small sojourn to the physical realm and then exiting from it in in a manner in which he knew would occur is the embodiment of anything I hold to be virtuous let alone this slippery word you call "love", this act doesn't make a blind bit of sense to me and certainly doesn't improve my unerstanding of the word.

You don't understand the idea of sacrifice? you don't see the humility, the mercy, the compassion expressed in God humiliating Himself to become one of us? You don't think these things are virtuous? Wow. You have some messed up sense of virtue!

Peace.

Emmy · Nov 30, 2008

Dear Grega. You had some good replies, may I give yet another meaning of Love? ( The Greek language is a bit more explicit.) Agape: Unselfish concern for everybody. God`s Love for us, He made us in His image image, we are His. Filio: Love for family and dear ones. Eros: Sexual love. God is our Heavenly Father, we were lost in sin and wrongdoings, selfish and wilful. God wants our LOVE/AGAPE. Love is the Key back to God, UNSELFISH without ANY strings attached. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

Grega · Nov 30, 2008

aiki said:
I can mean a variety of things. Which kind of love are you talking about?

First off, I don't believe the Bible teaches that God loves us "unconditionally." That is a popular idea, but not a biblical one. God doesn't accept us "just the way we are." Until we are washed clean by the blood of Christ by faith in him as Saviour and Lord, God does not accept us. In fact, until we are "accepted in the beloved" we stand under God's terrible wrath.

God's love is greater than any other's because of its perfectness. It is perfectly shaped and expressed by His mercy, holiness, and justice.

You assume there is a correlation between the kind of human "love" you've described and God's. But God isn't a human. You want a picture of God's love? Look at what Christ did on the cross for you.

You might also consider the following:

1 Corinthians 13:4-8 (NKJV)
4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up;
5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil;
6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth;
7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.

1 John 4:7-11 (NKJV)
7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.
8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.
9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him.
10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.

You don't understand the idea of sacrifice? you don't see the humility, the mercy, the compassion expressed in God humiliating Himself to become one of us? You don't think these things are virtuous? Wow. You have some messed up sense of virtue!

Peace.

I can mean a variety of things. Which kind of love are you talking about?
I need say nothing more on this question than to say it encapsulates pretty well my problem that this term "love" is extremely vague!!!...I don't know what type of love I'm talking about!!! thats why I ask you wat love actually is!

First off, I don't believe the Bible teaches that God loves us "unconditionally." That is a popular idea, but not a biblical one. God doesn't accept us "just the way we are." Until we are washed clean by the blood of Christ by faith in him as Saviour and Lord, God does not accept us. In fact, until we are "accepted in the beloved" we stand under God's terrible wrath.
My response to this doesn't belong here in this thread.

God's love is greater than any other's because of its perfectness. It is perfectly shaped and expressed by His mercy, holiness, and justice.
hmm...god's love is perfect (what does that mean, imply?), it is perfectly shaped ad expressed by its mercy,...am I to assume your god's mercy is also perfect (in that it is impossible to conceive of an entity that could be more merciful)?

1 Corinthians 13:4-8 (NKJV)
4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up;
5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil;
6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth;
7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.

1 John 4:7-11 (NKJV)
7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.
8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.
9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him.
10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.
Thanks for these...my response to this might also be a response to someone elses post so I won't give it here

You don't understand the idea of sacrifice? you don't see the humility, the mercy, the compassion expressed in God humiliating Himself to become one of us? You don't think these things are virtuous? Wow. You have some messed up sense of virtue!
Nope...I find your god's sacrifice to be a primitive and action that promotes the virtue of repulsive acts like animal and human sacrifices I abhor. I could say much but shall not...this is the wrong thread.

Grega · Nov 30, 2008

Chesterton said:
You want someone to say what love is in concrete terms? Thats a tall order, or at least I know I cant do it, but heres a couple of thoughts:

Whenever there are two or more persons present, there is something invisible created between them. You could call it spirit, mood, atmosphere, or some word like that.

If you go to a nightclub, and see people drinking, dancing, laughing, having fun, you will recognize a certain mood or spirit in the air. If you walk in on a business meeting, with several people sitting around a table discussing financial reports, youll also recognize a certain different mood. If you board a bus and see two strangers sitting far apart and not talking to each other, there is another mood. If you see a mother and father gazing at their newborn baby, theres a mood there.

Before there was a universe or any creature, there was a mood in the eternal places, a spirit of love. There was/is/will always be an eternal Spirit - Love is the Spirit, God is Spirit, God is Love. The Triune God is Love, because the Father loves the Son, the Son loves the Father, and what proceeds forth is the Spirit of Love, the Spirit of God.

And God has this love for us humans. But it is said to be greater than we can even imagine, and we cant express what we cant imagine. We have to talk about the pale imitations, the things we know. And you mentioned the biological love of lower animals, you know, even our Lord spoke in those terms to describe His love: O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

I hope someone can respond with a good definition of love, but if you want to read an excellent exposition of what love is about, and what its like, Id suggest reading the 13th chapter of 1 Corinthians.

Hmm...don't really know what to say about this other than to say this thing you call love seems to be completely distinct from any notions I have about it; and that you must use your god as a point of origin when referring to it such that statements like: "God's perfect love" are tautologies. (Since we are measuring love relative to god, with anyhing not being god automatically being less loving than your god!)

Grega · Nov 30, 2008

ephraimanesti said:
MY BROTHER,

The reason why atheists have such a hard time in dealing with Love in its spiritual essence is that they have turned their back of the source of all Love--in its "agape" sense--even going so far to deny His very existence, and thus have no means of seeing beyond "love" as defined by our decidedly UNloving society, where the same word is used for "I love my wife" as for "I love pizza," let alone personally experiencing it. Of course they are confused--just as a blind man would be when someone attempts to explain the beauty of a sunset to them.

The only way to understand the TRUE definition of "Love" is to have experienced it oneself--directly from the Hand of God--through Jesus by means of the Holy Spirit. Definitions will never replace experience!

A BOND-SLAVE OF CHRIST,
ephraim

Seems your god knows I'm a bit screwed then...since my way of thinking prohibits me from experiencing this "love" unless I actually know what it is....but I can only know what it is by experiencing it...which by my mindset requires me to know what it is...but I can only know what it is by experiencing it...and so on

Grega · Nov 30, 2008

Emmy said:
Dear Grega. You had some good replies, may I give yet another meaning of Love? ( The Greek language is a bit more explicit.) Agape: Unselfish concern for everybody. God`s Love for us, He made us in His image image, we are His. Filio: Love for family and dear ones. Eros: Sexual love. God is our Heavenly Father, we were lost in sin and wrongdoings, selfish and wilful. God wants our LOVE/AGAPE. Love is the Key back to God, UNSELFISH without ANY strings attached. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

I have difficulty correlating God wants our LOVE/AGAPE with God is LOVE...but thankyou for your reply

ephraimanesti · Nov 30, 2008

Grega said:
(Since we are measuring love relative to god, with anyhing not being god automatically being less loving than your god!)[/SIZE]

You are correct. Given that "God IS Love" (I John 4:8) and the source of all Love (keeping in mind the "agape" meaning of the term rather than its worldly approximations--"loving pizza" etc.) THERE IS ABSOLUTLY NO OTHER FRAME OF REFFERENCE POSSIBLE.

A BROTHER OF MY LORD JESUS,
ephraim

Emmy · Nov 30, 2008

Dear Grega. God knows you, although you believe that you might be a screwed, I simply believe that as long as you think of God as " your god," you will not truly find what you might think is LOVE. I say this humbly and with love, Grega, the day might come sooner than think, when you really need to know God, Almighty and ever ready to be there for you. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

Grega · Nov 30, 2008

ephraimanesti said:
You are correct. Given that "God IS Love" (I John 4:8) and the source of all Love (keeping in mind the "agape" meaning of the term rather than its worldly approximations--"loving pizza" etc.) THERE IS ABSOLUTLY NO OTHER FRAME OF REFFERENCE POSSIBLE.

A BROTHER OF MY LORD JESUS,
ephraim

Hmm..so God IS Love, ie: God = Love; so if someone says to me God loves me...then I can say God Gods me!...what does this mean?
What I'm trying to say is that the definitions I have so far fail to enlighten me with respect to what you and others mean when you use such statements like god loves you, Jesus teaches us to love our neighbours etc...

aiki · Nov 30, 2008

I can mean a variety of things. Which kind of love are you talking about?
I need say nothing more on this question than to say it encapsulates pretty well my problem that this term "love" is extremely vague!!!...I don't know what type of love I'm talking about!!! thats why I ask you wat love actually is!

No, the term "love" covers a broad range of ideas, but they are not vague. Love has been used in connection with brotherly affection, sexual passion, compassionate care and concern, etc.

God's love is greater than any other's because of its perfectness. It is perfectly shaped and expressed by His mercy, holiness, and justice.
hmm...god's love is perfect (what does that mean, imply?), it is perfectly shaped ad expressed by its mercy,...am I to assume your god's mercy is also perfect (in that it is impossible to conceive of an entity that could be more merciful)?

Since you cannot as a finite, earthbound creature know the full extent of an infinite God's mercy, you cannot conceive of a greater mercy. What mercy we see God extend to humanity in the Bible is just the tip of the iceberg. When we see God face-to-face, then we shall understand completely the perfectness of His mercy and love.

God's love, mercy and justice are not separate from each other. Whatever mercy God extends to humanity, it is also an expression of holiness and justice and love; whatever love God holds out to us, it is within the constraints of His holiness, justice, and mercy; whatever justice -- well, you get the picture, I'm sure.

You don't understand the idea of sacrifice? you don't see the humility, the mercy, the compassion expressed in God humiliating Himself to become one of us? You don't think these things are virtuous? Wow. You have some messed up sense of virtue!
Nope...I find your god's sacrifice to be a primitive and action that promotes the virtue of repulsive acts like animal and human sacrifices I abhor. I could say much but shall not...this is the wrong thread.

Do you find the death of, say, a firefighter who in dying saves the life of another person to be a "repulsive act"? How about Mother Theresa who gave her life in service to the needy and outcast in India in emulation of the sacrificial life of Christ? Was her life a "repulsive act"?

Does God still require animal sacrifices today? No. Do you know why that is?

The need for animal and then finally a human/divine sacrifice was caused by our sin. It is not God who is guilty of "repulsive acts", but us.

Peace.

Grega · Nov 30, 2008

aiki said:
No, the term "love" covers a broad range of ideas, but they are not vague. Love has been used in connection with brotherly affection, sexual passion, compassionate care and concern, etc.

Since you cannot as a finite, earthbound creature know the full extent of an infinite God's mercy, you cannot conceive of a greater mercy. What mercy we see God extend to humanity in the Bible is just the tip of the iceberg. When we see God face-to-face, then we shall understand completely the perfectness of His mercy and love.

God's love, mercy and justice are not separate from each other. Whatever mercy God extends to humanity, it is also an expression of holiness and justice and love; whatever love God holds out to us, it is within the constraints of His holiness, justice, and mercy; whatever justice -- well, you get the picture, I'm sure.

Do you find the death of, say, a firefighter who in dying saves the life of another person to be a "repulsive act"? How about Mother Theresa who gave her life in service to the needy and outcast in India in emulation of the sacrificial life of Christ? Was her life a "repulsive act"?

Does God still require animal sacrifices today? No. Do you know why that is?

The need for animal and then finally a human/divine sacrifice was caused by our sin. It is not God who is guilty of "repulsive acts", but us.

Peace.

No, the term "love" covers a broad range of ideas, but they are not vague. Love has been used in connection with brotherly affection, sexual passion, compassionate care and concern, etc.
The range of ideas covered by the word love may not be vague when you consider each idea...but unless you can tell me what this range of ideas is, then the word "love" which encapsulates all these ideas certainly is vague...furthermore I'd epect that even if you should be able to tell what type of love we're talking about from context then the idea of love in such a concept should be well defined as opposed to being all fuzzy-wuzzy!
As an anology, I am a good drawer (in that I define "good drawer" to be someone who can render in high and faithful detail what it is he is actually drawing) and people call me an "artist" but I always correct them by saying I'm not an artist since I despise the notion that my skills are being lumped into the same umbrella of terminology used by those who randomly and haphazardly fling paint at a canvas....The word "art" is just as vague as the word "love".

Since you cannot as a finite, earthbound creature know the full extent of an infinite God's mercy, you cannot conceive of a greater mercy. What mercy we see God extend to humanity in the Bible is just the tip of the iceberg. When we see God face-to-face, then we shall understand completely the perfectness of His mercy and love.
Of course I can!...If I can come up with an example of where your god isn't merciful then I need only conceive of a god in all but one way identical to yours where the only difference is that this new idea of god is merciful where yours isn't!..and this new god's mercy would be more perfect than yours!

Do you find the death of, say, a firefighter who in dying saves the life of another person to be a "repulsive act"? How about Mother Theresa who gave her life in service to the needy and outcast in India in emulation of the sacrificial life of Christ? Was her life a "repulsive act"?
Yes I find the idea of a firefighter who accidenly saves another life whilst offering himself as a sacrifice to your god to be a most repulsive act (you weren't equivocating where you?...by which I mean to say that you weren't actually talking about a firefighter who can at most only be very confident there is an afterlife (unlike your god) who acts selflessly to save another life then dies as an unfortunate consequence; the motive for this not being to appease your god by offering his own blood...you didn't mean this kind of sacrifice did you???)

Does God still require animal sacrifices today? No. Do you know why that is?

The need for animal and then finally a human/divine sacrifice was caused by our sin. It is not God who is guilty of "repulsive acts", but us.
I do have a response to this point also but this thread will be veering off course if I indulge myself

aiki · Nov 30, 2008

The range of ideas covered by the word love may not be vague when you consider each idea...but unless you can tell me what this range of ideas is, then the word "love" which encapsulates all these ideas certainly is vague...

Are you telling me you cannot distinguish between what is loving and what is not?

As an anology, I am a good drawer (in that I define "good drawer" to be someone who can render in high and faithful detail what it is he is actually drawing) and people call me an "artist" but I always correct them by saying I'm not an artist since I despise the notion that my skills are being lumped into the same umbrella of terminology used by those who randomly and haphazardly fling paint at a canvas....The word "art" is just as vague as the word "love".

Did it ever occur to you that those who fling paint at a canvas may find your kind of drawing artless? They may as artists object to being lumped in with you! That you despise a particular connection to certain kinds of artists doesn't necessarily mean that your drawing doesn't correctly fall under the title of "art."

Again, I would suggest to you that the term "love," while somewhat broad in meaning, is not therefore vague. I could tell you what the range of ideas encompassing the meaning of the word "love" are, but it would take a great deal of time - more than I can give. I have already provided you with a good, basic idea of what is meant by "love" when the Christian person uses it within the context of their faith. That's all I'm prepared to do here.

Of course I can!...If I can come up with an example of where your god isn't merciful then I need only conceive of a god in all but one way identical to yours where the only difference is that this new idea of god is merciful where yours isn't!..and this new god's mercy would be more perfect than yours!

Ah, I see. Well, "more perfectly merciful" is not the same as "more merciful." That was what I was getting at when I wrote of how God's love, mercy, justice and holiness are all intertwined. Yes, you can do as you describe above and say legitimately that your "new god" is "more merciful," but this doesn't mean that this "new god's" mercy is more perfect than the mercy of the God of the Bible. You see, it is sometimes where God is not merciful that the perfection of His mercy can be best seen. Mercy untempered by holiness, unrestrained by justice, uninformed by love is very far from perfect.

Do you find the death of, say, a firefighter who in dying saves the life of another person to be a "repulsive act"? How about Mother Theresa who gave her life in service to the needy and outcast in India in emulation of the sacrificial life of Christ? Was her life a "repulsive act"?
Yes I find the idea of a firefighter who accidenly saves another life whilst offering himself as a sacrifice to your god to be a most repulsive act (you weren't equivocating where you?...by which I mean to say that you weren't actually talking about a firefighter who can at most only be very confident there is an afterlife (unlike your god) who acts selflessly to save another life then dies as an unfortunate consequence; the motive for this not being to appease your god by offering his own blood...you didn't mean this kind of sacrifice did you???)

No, no equivocating here. My question was asked straight up.

Your response here did not accurately answer my question about the firefighter or Mother Theresa. I think you were too preoccupied with anticipating where I might be going with my questions...

Peace.

Grega · Nov 30, 2008

aiki said:
Are you telling me you cannot distinguish between what is loving and what is not?

Did it ever occur to you that those who fling paint at a canvas may find your kind of drawing artless? They may as artists object to being lumped in with you! That you despise a particular connection to certain kinds of artists doesn't necessarily mean that your drawing doesn't correctly fall under the title of "art."

Again, I would suggest to you that the term "love," while somewhat broad in meaning, is not therefore vague. I could tell you what the range of ideas encompassing the meaning of the word "love" is, but it would take a great deal of time - more than I can give. I have already provided you with a good, basic idea of what is meant by "love" when the Christian person uses it within the context of their faith. That's all I'm prepared to do here.

Ah, I see. Well, "more perfectly merciful" is not the same as "more merciful." That was what I was getting at when I wrote of how God's love, mercy, justice and holiness are all intertwined. Yes, you can do as you describe above and say legitimately that your "new god" is "more merciful," but this doesn't mean that this "new god's" mercy is more perfect than the mercy of the God of the Bible. You see, it is sometimes where God is not merciful that the perfection of His mercy can be best seen. Mercy untempered by holiness, unrestrained by justice, uninformed by love is very far from perfect.

No, no equivocating here. My question was asked straight up.

Your response here did not accurately answer my question about the firefighter or Mother Theresa. I think you were too preoccupied with anticipating where I might be going with my questions...

Peace.

Are you telling me you cannot distinguish between what is loving and what is not?
Feel free to call me stupid but though I might be able to tell whether a certain concept which may fall into a subset of concepts attached to a particular usage of the word love...I cannot in general accurately distinguish between that which is loving and that which is not.

I can distinguish between slightly unpleasant and very nasty, or between caring and indifferent but the range of ideas between loving and not loving would make it very difficult for me to accurately distinguish which act lies closer to one end of the range (and then I have the problem of deciding how close to one end I have to be before I can discard small errors and say it is either definitivley loving or not loving)...since I don't have enough information about this range

Did it ever occur to you that those who fling paint at a canvas may find your kind of drawing artless? They may as artists object to being lumped in with you! That you despise a particular connection to certain kinds of artists doesn't necessarily mean that your drawing doesn't correctly fall under the title of "art."
I would accept gladly any charges made by such people that my drawings were artless.
To answer your second point, my drawings would accurately fall under the title of "things"...this term is only slighly more vague than "art"

Again, I would suggest to you that the term "love," while somewhat broad in meaning, is not therefore vague. I could tell you what the range of ideas encompassing the meaning of the word "love" is, but it would take a great deal of time - more than I can give. I have already provided you with a good, basic idea of what is meant by "love" when the Christian person uses it within the context of their faith. That's all I'm prepared to do here.
I say it is vague...some of your colleagues have defined "love" to be god...so that when I say I love something I could equally say I god something...others might say it is something else...others may have other opinions...there is nothing tangible for me to work with!

Ah, I see. Well, "more perfectly merciful" is not the same as "more merciful." That was what I was getting at when I wrote of how God's love, mercy, justice and holiness are all intertwined. Yes, you can do as you describe above and say legitimately that your "new god" is "more merciful," but this doesn't mean that this "new god's" mercy is more perfect than the mercy of the God of the Bible. You see, it is sometimes where God is not merciful that the perfection of His mercy can be best seen. Mercy untempered by holiness, unrestrained by justice, uninformed by love is very far from perfect.
Fair enough...Give me a strict definition of perfect mercy and I'll give it another shot!

No, no equivocating here. My question was asked straight up.

Your response here did not accurately answer my question about the firefighter or Mother Theresa. I think you were too preoccupied with anticipating where I might be going with my questions...
Hmm...the question I didn't answer doesn't follow from my statement that I find animal and human sacrifices to be abhorrent...the sacrifices I meant here are in terms of offerings given to your god.
For completeness though I say that I do not find the notion of someone risking their lives to save another to be repulsive.

Chesterton · Nov 30, 2008

Grega said:
Hmm...don't really know what to say about this other than to say this thing you call love seems to be completely distinct from any notions I have about it;...

I dont know what to say about that, since I dont know where you got your notions. A lot of people alive today have gotten odd notions of love from Hollywood and pop songs.

...and that you must use your god as a point of origin when referring to it such that statements like: "God's perfect love" are tautologies.

I do use God as the point of origin, so I guess I agree that makes it a tautology; however that doesnt matter, since here Im not using the statement God is love to support or prove anything else. Im just stating it as a fundamental fact, according to Christian belief.

(Since we are measuring love relative to god, with anyhing not being god automatically being less loving than your god!)

I have to measure love relative to God, because hes the source and foundation of it. So yes, God is the epitome of Love, therefore anything less than God is less. As I said, I think the various forms of love we find on earth are different approximations and imitations of Divine love. As another poster noted, they vary from motherly (biological instinct) love, delight about stuff (i.e., I love pizza), friendship, erotic love, etc., and Christian love:

Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. John 15:13

And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. Mark 12:33

aiki · Nov 30, 2008

Are you telling me you cannot distinguish between what is loving and what is not?

Feel free to call me stupid but though I might be able to tell whether a certain concept which may fall into a subset of concepts attached to a particular usage of the word love...I cannot in general accurately distinguish between that which is loving and that which is not.

I can distinguish between slightly unpleasant and very nasty, or between caring and indifferent but the range of ideas between loving and not loving would make it very difficult for me to accurately distinguish which act lies closer to one end of the range (and then I have the problem of deciding how close to one end I have to be before I can discard small errors and say it is either definitivley loving or not loving)...since I don't have enough information about this range

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but it seems to me that essentially what you are saying here is that, if you cannot reason out exactly and completely what is and isn't love, you cannot claim any understanding of it at all. If this is so, aren't you throwing the baby out with the bathwater?

Did it ever occur to you that those who fling paint at a canvas may find your kind of drawing artless? They may as artists object to being lumped in with you! That you despise a particular connection to certain kinds of artists doesn't necessarily mean that your drawing doesn't correctly fall under the title of "art."
I would accept gladly any charges made by such people that my drawings were artless.
To answer your second point, my drawings would accurately fall under the title of "things"...this term is only slighly more vague than "art"

Actually, I think calling your drawings "things" is much more vague than calling them "art." If you asked me to go into your bedroom and get your "thing" I wouldn't know what to take. Actually, I could take anything, couldn't I? If, however, you asked me to get your art works, I could be fairly certain you weren't referring to your socks, or bed, or chest-of-drawers, or any of a great number of other things one commonly finds in a bedroom.

Again, I would suggest to you that the term "love," while somewhat broad in meaning, is not therefore vague. I could tell you what the range of ideas encompassing the meaning of the word "love" is, but it would take a great deal of time - more than I can give. I have already provided you with a good, basic idea of what is meant by "love" when the Christian person uses it within the context of their faith. That's all I'm prepared to do here.

I say it is vague...some of your colleagues have defined "love" to be god...so that when I say I love something I could equally say I god something...others might say it is something else...others may have other opinions...there is nothing tangible for me to work with!

I quoted the Bible when attempting to define love for you, so that you could not charge me with simply offering my own opinion. Love within the Christian faith is defined by the Word of God. Whatever opinions or differences you may encounter among Christians concerning the matter of love, you are always able to assess what they say by what is found in Scripture.

Ah, I see. Well, "more perfectly merciful" is not the same as "more merciful." That was what I was getting at when I wrote of how God's love, mercy, justice and holiness are all intertwined. Yes, you can do as you describe above and say legitimately that your "new god" is "more merciful," but this doesn't mean that this "new god's" mercy is more perfect than the mercy of the God of the Bible. You see, it is sometimes where God is not merciful that the perfection of His mercy can be best seen. Mercy untempered by holiness, unrestrained by justice, uninformed by love is very far from perfect.

Fair enough...Give me a strict definition of perfect mercy and I'll give it another shot!

Give what "another shot," exactly?

Your response here did not accurately answer my question about the firefighter or Mother Theresa. I think you were too preoccupied with anticipating where I might be going with my questions...

Hmm...the question I didn't answer doesn't follow from my statement that I find animal and human sacrifices to be abhorrent...the sacrifices I meant here are in terms of offerings given to your god.
For completeness though I say that I do not find the notion of someone risking their lives to save another to be repulsive.

Okay. The Bible teaches that what Christ did on the cross was to save us from the consequences of our own sin. Just like the firefighter or Mother Theresa, Christ didn't have to sacrifice himself. Nonetheless, he did - because he loves you and me (or should that be "you and I"?). What exactly is repulsive about this?

Again, I would ask you: Why are animal sacrifices no longer required by God? Also, why do you say "human sacrifices"? There was only one "Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world," not many.

Peace.

ephraimanesti · Nov 30, 2008

Grega said:
Hmm..so God IS Love, ie: God = Love; so if someone says to me God loves me...then I can say God Gods me!...what does this mean?

It means exactly what you have indicated although, of course, it isn't very good grammar. But, yes, God does indeed God you! He would also be most pleased if you would God Him back--that, in fact, is what you were created for and the very reason for your existence.

Grega said:
What I'm trying to say is that the definitions I have so far fail to enlighten me with respect to what you and others mean when you use such statements like god loves you, Jesus teaches us to love our neighbours etc...

As an atheist, there is no possible way you can ever become "enlighted" regarding the meaning of God's Love (which is the only real Love.) It must be experienced to be understood, and although God does Love you beyond anything you can possibly comprehend, your being closed to God (whom you go so far as to deny) precludes your experiencing that Love. Second-hand descriptions will never be able to give you even a rough approximation of what you are denying yourself.

JESUS' MUCH YOUNGER BROTHER,
ephraim

jellybean99 · Nov 30, 2008

The most succinct terms describe Christian love are selfless and sacrificial.

Love???

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