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atad6

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Note: Sorry if this isn't the right place to post this, but I just realized I have to have 15 posts to start a thread and I just spent 20 minutes typing the following up. It's related to the feelings of the person who started thread, so I thought it would be fitting to post it here.

Over the last few years, I've slowly come to grips with losing my faith. I don't really take it as a bad thing, more of a progression from being naive and single minded to open and confused. I'm not here to try to point any fingers, rather just trying to explain my feelings and journey in an attempt to get a conversation going. I'm not always eloquent in my efforts to write, so please bear with me.

I always went to church growing up. My family attended a fairly large Lutheran church and was highly involved with the community. Eventually I moved to a much smaller mission church nearby, which gave me a different experience in a much more intimate congregation. Despite being involved, my true acceptance did not occur until my freshman year of high school. I had once again moved to another Lutheran church, this time with a much more involved youth group.

I had always studied the bible, but always had trouble with its inconsistencies and what seemed to me as contradictions. Most of the time I simply accepted this as my own inability to correctly comprehend a given chapter and eventually ended up ignoring such feelings, relying on the "faith alone" mentality that so many people around me had. Not to say I that I no longer studied, just that more emphasis was placed on the connection I had with God rather than the material behind it. Being in a place where I accepted the truth of Jesus as my only savior was euphoric at first, a revelation, which as much strength it gave me, lead me asking more questions.

Questions are not a bad thing, most people say they help strengthen your faith. In time however, I've gained much more doubts about the material that my faith is based on, so much in fact that I've turned away from Christianity all together. I'm not saying that Christianity is a bad thing, the same faults that are applied to Christians are found in every other part of life. This of course being one of the most heavily preached aspects of the religion, trying to relate to everyone.

In a similar respect, what I was gaining from Christianity, a sense of community, personal meditation and desire to improve myself and help other people was nothing that couldn't be found outside Christianity. My problems were with the Christian faith, doctrine and claims made in the bible.

Where does that put me now? Well to be honest I'd say, pleasantly happy and confused. I don't have any new answers, nor do I particularly need them. Simplicity doesn't have to mean ignorance and naive. I believe there is a god or some sort of outside force that created us. This is apparent in the universe, and the complexity of life. I believe the purpose of life is to simply enjoy it, and the way to do so is to help others live in a similar state. Enjoy it and help others. Live, learn, help and explore. If I live my entire life with the purpose of helping others improve their state what could be more fulfilling? Even more so, I wouldn't wish to worship a god who condemns solely on whether or not I believe in Jesus Christ. Anyway, that's where I'm at this moment. It was perhaps a bit too long and fragmented. I apologize for not being much of a writer. I hope I don't offend anyone.

I also wanted to separately initiate a dialogue about some of my concerns with the bible. I just have some questions, as I still study the bible.

Why were the gospels written so late after the death of Jesus? Like other documents of the time, it's hard to know exactly when they were written, but it generally seems to be accepted, or at least what I've researched to be anywhere between 10 and 100 years after. A second in terms of ancient history, but if the events were so important, why were they not recorded sooner? Often arguments are made to its timing with the fact that none of the gospels discuss the burning down of the temple in 70 CE which was proven by the prophecy Jesus made in Mark 13:2, Matthew 24:2 and Luke 21:6. While the prophecy did come true, it seems like a pretty vague one, simply stating the temple would eventually fall.

Anyway, since I have a hard time explaining many of the frustrations I've had with the bible, I found a good article explaining and exploring many of them. If anyone has the time to comment on its contents that would be great.

humanknowledge.net/Philosophy/Metaphysics/Theology/Christianity.html
 
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Kirsten3

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I love how this "outreach" is really nothing more than condemnations. I came on here, hoping for a place I could open up and discuss my questions, concerns, fears, thoughts, etc without being told I'm going to hell or that people like me who struggle are going to hell. I know the bible pretty well. I have read it, struggled with it, read it some more ... and still I have a lot of nagging questions. I don't need to be preached at. Part of why I have lost my faith is because everytime I come to a Christian with a question instead of getting an answer I get told in one way or another under no uncertain terms that I better believe ... or else. I know the bible well enough to know that I am going to hell if I don't believe ... assuming any of it is true which to me is a big assumption at this point. I don't need to be told yet again that I am doomed to hell. I need answers. I need to know why modern day miracles do not exist. I need to understand how I'm supposed to have a personal relationship with someone who never responds. How is that personal? I still want to believe. Like I said before, I wish I could. It certainly does not help when you go somewhere thinking you can open up and talk and find out that "Christians" are universally judmental and do not have real answers. So go ahead and keep telling people they better believe or else ... and if you make it to heaven see how many people you helped to convert. At least the Jesus I have read about was always ready with open arms and love. Ironically, the largest turn off to "his" church is that "his" people are nothing like him. So go ahead and throw your stones.
 
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cerette

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Some of us do like to try and answer your questions, so please give it another try! I will do my best to try and answer them.
 
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Kirsten3

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i suggest you read all about Jesus and not just the parts you like.

Not that it matters to you, but I have read the entire new testament many times and most of the old testament. I was a practicing, involved Christian for about 8 years. I do not speak in ignorance. Overall, the Jesus I read about was loving. I suggest you try reading more about Jesus. Your attitude is not loving, which is supposed to be more important than anything else. It seems you have effectively chased off the other skeptics in this group and I guess maybe you get some kind of high out of winning. If I get nothing else out of this group I hope that maybe you will at least check yourself and question where you're coming from. Your speech is not intelligent and your personal attacks are tiring. People come on here looking for help, not for attacks. I'm pretty new to this site, but as I said before I am not new to Christianity. Outreach should be about love, not about pushing non-believers away.

Cerette,

I appreciate your attitude ... that is why I joined. I would be more than happy if ryanb6 never posted in this area again. Ironically, it is people like that that have been my biggest stumbling block to Christianity. That mixed with issues like the lack of miracles and general lack of love in the church. I could ask a lot of deep theological questions, but I don't think that would get us anywhere. I would like to believe in God. I just look around and see no evidence. I'm not asking for a happy life on cloud 9, but I need something to show me that God is real. Call me Thomas, or if you want to get nasty you could tell me "a wicked and adulturous generation looks for signs". But seriously, I have an ex-husband who used the Bible to beat me up on a regular basis and I don't need it here. I think I just need a place that I can talk through things, safely.
 
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cerette

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Hopefully this is a place where you can talk about things safely. Some people seem to talk about religion mostly to win an argument. I don't agree with that. You may win the argument, but lose the person. Not good!

I am sorry to hear that you have had bad experiences with your husband misusing his Bible.

Please feel free to ask your questions. If nobody can answer them, at least we can say "Sorry, I just can't answer that one, I am not competent enough". But it doesn't hurt to ask... and if someone is being rude or mean, try to simply ignore them.

You mentioned lack of miracles and love in the church. Let me start by commenting on the lack of love: The Bible is very clear that we are to love one another, even love our enemies!!, but it is also true that the church consists of sinners. Christians are sinners too. Until we reach our heavenly home we will still have to fight against our sinful nature. [What is so wonderful about Christ though, is that we know that he died for ALL sins, so by believing in him we know that we will not be judged according to our sins, but God will see Christ's righteousness when he looks at us] This sinfulness is the reason why we lack love for our neighbors. Our sinfulness does not make it okay for us to be unloving, but it explains why it is that way. Everyone of us need to repent from our sins, including the lack of love, everyday, and we ought to grow in sanctification. The more sanctified we are, the more we will love other people.

About miracles: The Bible does not promise us that there will always be 'huge' miracles happening everywhere.But there are tons and tons of miracles happening everyday, but they are things we take for granted so we don't really notice them.

May the good Lord bless you and bring you to faith in his love for you.
 
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Kirsten3

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I have been trying very hard to find out what bothers me the most. I would like to know what the block is for me, but it is hard to define. I remember when I was about 18 I went to this little church for a while and the used to always sing that hymn, "I'm saved and I know that I am". At the time I had turned my life fully over to God ... I prayed and read my Bible daily. I reached out to people who were hurting and went to church all of the time. But everytime I heard that hymn I felt unsure.

No matter how many times I asked God to grow my faith there was always this level of doubt deep down in my gut that I could not get past, but I pushed it aside as long as I could. Eventually, after my marriage fell apart with a man who claimed to be a Christian, but was abusive in more ways than one I began to allow myself to ask the question that I never dared to ask before.

Then, a mom at our church had her baby die and she asked the pastor to raise the child from the dead. I did not attend a particularly charismatic church and this was very unusual. She did not ask in church or anything, but the pastor told us about it later. He shared that he prayed for as much faith and belief as possible and tried to raise the child. Of course it did not happen.

What do you do with that? The bible talks of miracles such as these ... indeed the whole Christian faith is based on one man being raised from the dead. But this pastor could not raise this baby and I know of no case where anyone has raised anyone from the dead in modern days.

I realize I've put forth a big challenge. But why can't God do that anymore? Or if He can why doesn't he? I have asked God to reveal Himself to me. I have asked Him to break me so that I have nothing to rely on but Him. I have been broken, but all I have discovered is that I can count on noone but myself and God has dissapeared from sight.
 
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cerette

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I believe the block for you is the very same block everyone else has. It is your sinfulness. In ourselves, we are hostile toward God. May I ask you, what would it take for you to believe in God? What sort of a sign is it that you are looking for?

All of us still have our sinful flesh. For Christian, this means that the New Creation in us has to fight against this old sinful nature. The battle will be over when we are in heaven. But during our earthly lives, we will still have to fight against our own sinfulness. It is like the apostle Paul wrote in Romans 7. You mentioned that there was always some doubt. This is because of the sinful nature. It is not because God doesn't exist. Some folks suffer from doubt, others from having bad thoughts, yet others from other sins.

For a Christian all our doctrines need to be based on the Bible. Nowhere in the Bible does God promise us that we will be able to wake people up from death. I am sorry that the mother lost her baby. That must be such a horrible thing! I feel for her. But the question to ask here is: Why did the baby die? Why do people die? Why is there such a things as death? Answer: Because of sin. The wages of sin is death! But for a believer, death is not the end. Death hurts, makes us angry etc... but it is not the end. Death is only a separation between your soul and your body. You soul moves away from the body to be with Christ. Seen from that perspective, death is a joyful thing. Then at the end of times, the Lord will re-unite our souls and bodies. What a joy!

God can do anything. But who are we to demand God to do things we wish for him to do? Just because God can do things, it doesn't mean he will definitely for sure do all things we ask for.

May the good Lord use my poor attempt of an answer to uplift you today!
 
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heron

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A lot of people go through this, and it sometimes comes in waves. (A few years.) I have found some things that make a difference for me:

1. Acknowledging what God said about two gathering in prayer, and establishing that in my life. Getting a prayer partner and knowing that someone is honestly praying for me.... not just saying they will. And vice versa. I'm not saying this as a list of should's, but a list of things I didn't do, and I realized I missed out when I chose not to do them.

2. Choosing to read God's promises with a stance of faith. Instead of saying "He'd never do that for me," I have to determine myself to see His promises as honest and firm. If He says he will provide and rescue, then my choice to agree with Him is a step in that direction... .it opens up the possibilities. By nature, self-deprecation usually gets the best of us. But Jesus said, Ask, knock, seek, ask anything... probably repeated to get it through our thick skulls.

I get promise books from the dollar store, and read these out loud to remind myself of what God said He would do. Promised He would do.

3. In dealing with opposing forces, it helps me to remember "we struggle not against flesh and blood, but against angels and principalities...." Whether you choose to believe in them or not, they are very scriptural and Jesus gave disciples automaticm undeserving authority to combat them through words. If you are starting to feel oppressed or dragged down, say audibly, "In Jesus' name, leave me alone." (Not to a person of course.... go to the next room.)

I just look around and see no evidence. I'm not asking for a happy life on cloud 9, but I need something to show me that God is real.
The miracle you needed was being free from the abuser earlier than you were. Maybe the miracle was learning how to stand up against him before you were freed, so that you knew how to avoid it in the future.
About miracles: The Bible does not promise us that there will always be 'huge' miracles happening everywhere.But there are tons and tons of miracles happening everyday, but they are things we take for granted so we don't really notice them
Jesus did miracles out of compassion. He saw the plight of people who were crippled and couldn't work, hemorrhaging or blind, and wanted to help them. We have plenty of needs around us that could use miracles! But miracles depend on a choice. A prayer with faith that God could do these things. We can't muster faith very well because it's illogical, but watching other people's miracles can help build sensibility into it.

Even though most of us aren't in an environment where the miraculous is commonplace, there are thousands of churches across the world that witness miracles regularly. It's just a matter of looking. You might not agree with what each is doing, and of course it will appear risky theologically, but God does work miracles when people ask.

Here are a few links... I am not endorsing them and don't know much about the ministries, but am familiar enough to know where to look.

"Healings...and more healings
"People came again this year who had been healed in our meetings 10 years ago," Marilyn said—including one woman who had been deaf in both ears and now hears properly...and another woman who could not have a baby but who now has a 9-year-old daughter!

Miracles abounded as tumors shrunk and people with chronic pain experienced instantaneous healing. People born deaf received their hearing, blind eyes were opened, knees and backs were healed, and demon-oppressed people were set free.

"How could we lose, we were just saturated with prayer!" Marilyn remarked."


http://www.mymhmin.org/sudan-2007-update


http://www.jewishprophet.com/Miracles/Miracles.htm
http://www.schambach.org/SM/NEWS/ANNOUNCEMENTS.ASPX
http://www.christian-faith.com/forjesus/miracles-today-because-jesus-is-alive

These are just a few random samplings... I know more about Marilyn Hickey than the others.

It is so sad that some of your oppression was probably done with religious overtones. It's hard to stand against that when someone plays mind games, like "obey your husband" (church members will say it too.) What a mess. I'm glad that you are finally able to see that as your distant past!

--prayers for hope and restoration... girding you up... --
 
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Kirsten3

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I appreciate both of your thoughts. I know that others believe miracles happen everyday, but as a science & math buff I just have a hard time calling something a miracle that happens naturally. I brought up rising the dead because that undeniably denies the natural. If someone has been verifiably medically deceased for 3+ days and comes back to life it would be impossible to explain away. I see good things happen and I see things that work out, but they always have an explanation. I'm not saying I have to see someone raised from the dead to believe in God, but I do need to see something that defies the natural in a way that I can say that it undeniably is miraculous. And I need to see it with my own eyes. Hearing about something just doesn't prove it to me. People lie, plain & simple. I realize the bible did not promise these kinds of miracles, but that seems to me to be an orchestrated convenience. If it happened then there should be no reason why it could not happen now. However, the authors knew these things (miracles) were impossible and left out those promises intentionally so it would leave the question open. At least that's what I tend to believe. If they promised that believers would be able to perform these acts and they couldn't, then anyone in their right mind would say it was false. Because the promise was not made it leaves it open to our current debate. Just the kind of reasoning that has left me with continuous doubts, but something I need to get past before I can believe all the same.
 
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cerette

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Hi Kirsten3,
Thanks for your reply.

It is true that many things that happen everyday are natural. But what is 'natural'? Isn't it still something that God controls? God created the sun. The sun shines "by itself" everyday... that is a miracle. You waking uo every morning with your heart still beating...isn't that a great wonder?!

As a Christian, I believe that the Bible is the true word of God. If the Bible tells me something, I believe it. Seems like a difference between you and me is that you don't just believe the Bible, you ask for a reason to believe it before you can believe what it says. (Have I understood you correctly?) You said if miracles happened then, why don't they happen now? Well...let me ask... just because miracles happened then, why must they happen now?
I would suggest you go to church on a regular basis and listen to the sermons etc, and read your Bible. God uses his word to strengthen faith and awakening faith.
I wish you the best and hope I have not confused you more. Feel free to ask more questions if you'd like to.
 
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ydouxist

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I have prayed for the dead to come back to life before. The last time was 2 years ago when my son died.
It didn't happen, but I still believe it can and does.
Here is a documented account.

http://www.insightsofgod.com/raised_dead.html
 
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L.A.W.

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When you walk in the truth, nothing can shake you. However, when you walk outside the truth, you will be wiped away. We are fighting against the evil spirits on high. There are many confusion and lies going about. Meditate upon the scriptures. Increase your knowledge of the truth that you will discern what is of Yahuah and what is not. Reexamine yourself, deny yourself, and follow yahushua.
 
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