Looking for non-sacrificial doctrine

Albion · Mar 13, 2015

CelticRebel said:
Yes, I have studied all those churches and their views on baptism, in-depth. In the past, I have been a member of the Episcopal Church and the United Methodist Church. I had considered going into ministry in both, but infant baptism was a major stumbling block.

OK. That takes care of that small possibility--that you might not have taken sufficient account of the "other side of the coin." But you have, so that's that. And I wouldn't want to say that this closes the door, even though I do have to stand by my earlier answer that there's just no ambivalence among Anglicans of any variety on this issue. On the meaning of Baptism, there's some, but on baptizing infants and youngsters, no.

Still, today, just for membership purposes, I believe Anglicanism would probably be the best fit for me, or a moderate Baptist, Mennonite, or Quaker church. But there again, the problem is distance. Even with the AMiA church that is closest to me, that's still an hour's drive. Nearest moderate-conservative Baptist church is 90 minutes, and nearest Mennonite church is two-plus hours. Looks as if I'm just out of luck.

Yes, this strikes me as just terrible luck, but sometimes it happens to people who live in rural areas, and we've heard it before on this forum.

Oh, I did find a non-denominational church about 20 miles away. I talked with the pastor yesterday, and he told me they were full-gospel/Pentecostal. I don't think that's an option.

We seem to have wrapped this up, but you have to have some church.

Would the UMC be acceptable? It's about the only one that I could see as coming even close to meeting your requirements, out of all the ones I think are available to you. Their position on baptism may be--it is with other Methodist churches--that it's whatever the parents want. So that at least admits of the validity of your POV on this matter.

CelticRebel · Mar 13, 2015

Albion said:
OK. That takes care of that small possibility--that you might not have taken sufficient account of the "other side of the coin." But you have, so that's that. And I wouldn't want to say that this closes the door, even though I do have to stand by my earlier answer that there's just no ambivalence among Anglicans of any variety on this issue. On the meaning of Baptism, there's some, but on baptizing infants and youngsters, no.

Yes, this strikes me as just terrible luck, but sometimes it happens to people who live in rural areas, and we've heard it before on this forum.

We seem to have wrapped this up, but you have to have some church.

Would the UMC be acceptable? It's about the only one that I could see as coming even close to meeting your requirements, out of all the ones I think are available to you. Their position on baptism may be--it is with other Methodist churches--that it's whatever the parents want. So that at least admits of the validity of your POV on this matter.

Let me speak from different places on the UMC. When I was considering ministry there, they had just changed their "official" statement/doctrine on baptism, contained in the document called "By Water and the Spirit: A United Methodist Understanding of Baptism". I could not accept it. I also found that I could not accept that the local church could not own its own property, that the denomination owned it. And financial giving to the denomination was not voluntary but the amounts apportioned to the local churches by the denomination. So, baptism and polity were stumbling blocks to me. Also, the church was pro-choice on abortion, and I believe the only thing keeping them from going the way of TEC, PCUSA, and the ELCA was the predominance of southern USA delegates and African delegates to General Conference.

Now not being a minister there, I would still have much the same concerns. So, I don't know, but I don't think the UMC would be a good fit for me.

I've visited churches from almost every denomination within 50 miles, and some further, over many years. I've even talked to Catholic priests a couple of times. In the last couple of months, I've also corresponded with Orthodox priests.

It seems at this point in my life, it must not be meant for me to go to a church.

I know no church is perfect, and I am certainly not looking for that or expecting that. And I don't mean to be nitpicking. I'd just like to find a place that I fit and belong.

Albion · Mar 14, 2015

CelticRebel said:
Let me speak from different places on the UMC. When I was considering ministry there, they had just changed their "official" statement/doctrine on baptism, contained in the document called "By Water and the Spirit: A United Methodist Understanding of Baptism". I could not accept it. I also found that I could not accept that the local church could not own its own property, that the denomination owned it. And financial giving to the denomination was not voluntary but the amounts apportioned to the local churches by the denomination. So, baptism and polity were stumbling blocks to me. Also, the church was pro-choice on abortion, and I believe the only thing keeping them from going the way of TEC, PCUSA, and the ELCA was the predominance of southern USA delegates and African delegates to General Conference.

Now not being a minister there, I would still have much the same concerns. So, I don't know, but I don't think the UMC would be a good fit for me.

I've visited churches from almost every denomination within 50 miles, and some further, over many years. I've even talked to Catholic priests a couple of times. In the last couple of months, I've also corresponded with Orthodox priests.

It seems at this point in my life, it must not be meant for me to go to a church.

I know no church is perfect, and I am certainly not looking for that or expecting that. And I don't mean to be nitpicking. I'd just like to find a place that I fit and belong.

I appreciate this summary, and I would have many of the same concerns or objections as you do, but I thought this (UMC) was probably the best of a poor collection.

To have no church home at all would be a shame (as you don't need us to tell you), but if none will work for you, then I would not recommend compromising your conscience. The last suggestion might be to find the best of a poor lot and attend but decline to hold membership in it.

Some people feel that this is a way to be honest with their own consciences but not to exclude themselves totally from corporate worship.

single eye · Mar 14, 2015

Robot, I have not seen individuals or groups successfully cherry-pick the bible into the faith once dleivered to the saints.

CelticRebel · Mar 14, 2015

Albion said:
I appreciate this summary, and I would have many of the same concerns or objections as you do, but I thought this (UMC) was probably the best of a poor collection.

To have no church home at all would be a shame (as you don't need us to tell you), but if none will work for you, then I would not recommend compromising your conscience. The last suggestion might be to find the best of a poor lot and attend but decline to hold membership in it.

Some people feel that this is a way to be honest with their own consciences but not to exclude themselves totally from corporate worship.

I expect you are right, and this is probably what I should and will do.

Thank you very much for all your responses.

Albion · Mar 14, 2015

CelticRebel said:
[/B]

I expect you are right, and this is probably what I should and will do.

Thank you very much for all your responses.

Best wishes for an acceptable outcome. It's been enjoyable "talking" with you!

CelticRebel · Mar 14, 2015

Albion said:
Best wishes for an acceptable outcome. It's been enjoyable "talking" with you!

Thanks!

And same here!

CelticRebel · Mar 16, 2015

Job8 said:
How can you have a Savior without His substitutionary sacrifice? So either we have total hypocrisy or total apostasy. As I said before, this gentleman should find a good Eastern religion and then he won't even have to think about this.

Your view is very narrow. Your view of the atonement is also unknown until Calvin. You need to go and study the first thousand years of the church.

CelticRebel · Mar 16, 2015

Job8 said:
It's what the Bible teaches, not what "religions" make of the sacrifice of Christ. We can either go by our "preferences" or believe God.

Based strictly on the Bible there is no Christianity without the substitutionary sacrifice of Christ. Indeed there is no genuine Christ, "the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world (Jn 1:29). We could delve into all the Scriptures, but that is not necessary. It is significant that Christ is called the Lamb in the book of Revelation, and that He is the Lamb upon His throne.

The early Christians had the Bible, and they did not see penal substitution there. No one saw it there until Calvin and the Magisterial Reformers. It is false doctrine.

Job8 · Mar 16, 2015

CelticRebel said:
The early Christians had the Bible, and they did not see penal substitution there. No one saw it there until Calvin and the Magisterial Reformers. It is false doctrine.

Forget about Calvin and anyone else. Can you show us from the Bible what you mean by "no penal substitution there"? Chapter and verse please.

CelticRebel · Mar 21, 2015

Job8 said:
Forget about Calvin and anyone else. Can you show us from the Bible what you mean by "no penal substitution there"? Chapter and verse please.

What would be the point? You believe it's there, and I don't.

Job8 · Mar 21, 2015

CelticRebel said:
What would be the point? You believe it's there, and I don't.

One can reject what the Bible teaches, since multitudes do exactly that.

But if your belief is based on wishful thinking rather than what is revealed in the Bible, then that is another matter. It is impossible to to separate Christ from His substitutionary sacrifice for the sins of humanity. Therefore you are unable to find any Scripture to support your position.

Now you have two choices: believe the Bible and reject your own fantasies, or disbelieve the Bible and face the consequences of unbelief.

CelticRebel · Mar 21, 2015

Job8 said:
One can reject what the Bible teaches, since multitudes do exactly that.

But if your belief is based on wishful thinking rather than what is revealed in the Bible, then that is another matter. It is impossible to to separate Christ from His substitutionary sacrifice for the sins of humanity. Therefore you are unable to find any Scripture to support your position.

Now you have two choices: believe the Bible and reject your own fantasies, or disbelieve the Bible and face the consequences of unbelief.

You are accusatory, judgmental, and do not reflect the spirit of Jesus.

There is plenty of scripture to support Ransom/Christus Victor/Recapitulation views of the atonement. I suggest you do some study and dispel your ignorance on the subject. That includes study of what the Bible actually says instead of what Calvin claimed it says.

It is you who believes in fantasies, as your penal substitution view was invented by Calvin and is thus a johnny-come-lately doctrine unknown and untaught for 1500 years. The early Christians did not see such a monstrous, abhorrent doctrine in scripture.

Emmyc · Apr 17, 2015

Try Decipals of Christ. I used to go to them. They focus much more on the life and example of Jesus then on his death.

CelticRebel · Apr 17, 2015

Emmyc said:
Try Decipals of Christ. I used to go to them. They focus much more on the life and example of Jesus then on his death.

Thanks. But there are none in my area. Plus, they are way too liberal -- pro-abortion, pro-homosexual marriage and ordination.

Emmyc · Apr 18, 2015

In that case Woodland Hills Church Minnesota. Listen or watch online for free. Against abortion, divorce, and gay marriage. Christos victor view of the atonement. Focus on following Jesus and living a sacrificial Christ like life

CelticRebel · Apr 18, 2015

Emmyc said:
In that case Woodland Hills Church Minnesota. Listen or watch online for free. Against abortion, divorce, and gay marriage. Christos victor view of the atonement. Focus on following Jesus and living a sacrificial Christ like life

Yes, a wonderful church.Thank you!

But I really feel the need to find a church I can physically attend.

Emmyc · Apr 19, 2015

You and me both. I desperately need a woodland hills in Oregon. I listen to the pod cast and no local church matches up

CelticRebel · Apr 19, 2015

Emmyc said:
You and me both. I desperately need a woodland hills in Oregon. I listen to the pod cast and no local church matches up

Are you attending anywhere now?

Emmyc · Apr 20, 2015

A different place every week (I moved about a month and a half ago).
I tried Presbyterians: (Kinda stuffy, only old people, message didn't feel relavent (kinda fluffy no conviction).
Tried Lutherans: (Lots of good work helping the poor, mostly old people in the service and no day care for my daughter, pretty good sermons. very ritualistic. Went twice)
Tried "non denominational Family Church": (Lots of people my age and lots of activities for children. Modern, good music, fairly good preaching.... but they are very standard evangelical, the focus is on "saving souls" rather then helping the pool. Substitution focused on a lot and mentioned often. Women can't preach or be leaders
. (went twice)
Narareen: (Lots of kids and programs for kids, the preacher was a guest speaker, but I know the usual guy's very big on Fox News. Focus on personal individual piety. Went once)
I called about 5 other places also. These guys seemed the best based on their web page and talking on the phone.
Not sure what to do.

Looking for non-sacrificial doctrine

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