Looking for a church that doesn't teach Tithing? Please help

Andyman_1970 said:

Some will even from the pulpit say your "robbing God"............been there heard that.

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Yup. That's why we need to be temperate on things. We shouldn't compromise at all on some things, and we shouldn't compromise any belief based solely on the fact that others disagree, but "You're robbing God because you disagree with my interpretation of the Scriptures on the subject of giving." is unfair and judgemental. It's akin to making oneself God.

andry said:

Because some churches will not allow you into 'membership' if you don't tithe, or won't allow you to take any ministry or leadership positions. It sounds silly, but I've been there.

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That is correct . I checked out the foursquare website from another thread and it is a part of their statement of faith . Their "Statement of Faith" for crying out loud . And , they referred to Malachi which refers to the tithing commands concerning food for feasts and the poor and Levites .

andry said:

Because some churches will not allow you into 'membership' if you don't tithe, or won't allow you to take any ministry or leadership positions. It sounds silly, but I've been there.

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I never write a check for any of my giving, how will they know if I pay 5, 10 or 20 percent?

Normann said:

I never write a check for any of my giving, how will they know if I pay 5, 10 or 20 percent?

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You don't care about tax deductible receipts? Some people don't. Others do.

If you walk to church and work at MacDonalds, annual giving of $2,000 would seem 'good'. But if you drive a Jaguar to church.......

I don't care either way, but some people do.

Andyman_1970 said:

So you assertion is that tithing = blessing? Chapter and verse please.

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No, my assertion is that it was not a one-off thing.

I’m glad Jacob tithed on his increase, but that is not a command – Biblical context is the key here.

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You really have to get out of this "command" / "law" mindset becos no one is talking about being commanded to tithe.

And Abraham tithed what he captured, no mention that he gave currency (which was available at that time) – so you’re not even imitating Abrahams tithe properly.

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Rem the Internet / Radio argument?

Chapter and verse please, where only one tree was God’s. The Psalms tell us “the whole world is God’s and everything in it.”

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Read Genesis again: the were not allowed to eat of one tree. I'm sure you know that.

You know, whether you like it or not, you do tithe. Only to the King of Sodom, not King of Salem. Your money may not be tithed to God, but it goes to the world's system through taxes, payments, repairs etc.

And yes, you are robbing God. But God still loves you.
Yes, you are cursed, not by God, but by the curse that's already in the earth. What you receive as your paycheck is tainted with the curse becos it comes from the world. God offers a simple way to sanctify it, 10% and the rest is holy. But you refuse.

There is no law here. But you lose out that's all.

Because some churches will not allow you into 'membership' if you don't tithe, or won't allow you to take any ministry or leadership positions. It sounds silly, but I've been there.

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My church practices that. If you want to be employed full-time or be appointed as a leader, they will check your tithing records.

The reason is simple.

Lu 16:11 If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches?

Andrew said:

My church practices that. If you want to be employed full-time or be appointed as a leader, they will check your tithing records.

The reason is simple.

Lu 16:11 If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches?

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So the criteria for leadership is money? I know it makes rational sense in the natural, but it doesn't necessarily make for 'God-sense' (pardon the pun).

Andrew, I run a public company, so I understand and appreciate (and in light of Anderson, Enron, Worldcom, and others) the need for strict financial controls and accountability.

But do you realize that Jesus walked for 3 ½ years with guys who weren’t even saved. Hadn’t got a clue of what it was all about. The Son of Man must die, but he will rise again. ‘No Lord, never.’ ‘We will not let that happen to you.’ When He dies, did they expect a resurrection? Not on your life. It’s like, boys, it’s finished, it’s over. I mean, 3 ½ years, Jesus has been saying to them, ‘Understand this, the Son of Man must die, but on the third day will rise again.’ So the Son of Man dies, and, that’s it boys, we’re finished. It’s over, let’s go back fishing. Let’s go buy some boats, it’s through, it’s over, it was good while it lasted.

Have you ever wondered why the women brought spices to the tomb on the first day of the week? Cause they expected to find Jesus. Not one of them believed that He was going to rise from the dead. They were going to make his death respectable. Find a way to theologically make it smell nice. They didn’t believe that He was going to rise from the dead – why would you take anointing spices to anoint a body if you believed it was not going to be there? They didn’t believe a word of it. It was only after Jesus was resurrected, and appeared to them, frightened them half-silly, that they suddenly realized that it was all true, and salvation visits the house.

Now get this.... Jesus got them going around performing miracles and they’re not even saved.

‘Oh, you can’t let that person dance on the platform there, they’re not even born-again.’ 'Oh, you can't let that person be an usher, cause he doesn't tithe.' What silliness.

But Jesus sent them out two by two doing miracles, casting out devils. They weren’t even born again. But they were on a journey to being born again.

Now we’re so bound up with the issue of success and what's 'right' as we perceive it, that we actually miss the purposes of God. I find that sad, paticularly on the issue of the tithe, as that's so shallow.

Before you jump on me, realize that personally, for me, it would be easier on the pocketbook if I did tithe. So one would think that I'd be more of a supporter of the tithe doctrine than I would be on the 'giving' doctrine.

I hope none at my church judges my spirituality and maturity based on a balance sheet. I would hope that any leadership position I am placed in is because God said so.

Andrew said:

No, my assertion is that it was not a one-off thing.

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Then your assertion is contrary to the Word of God.

Andrew said:

You really have to get out of this "command" / "law" mindset becos no one is talking about being commanded to tithe.

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The whole mindset of “if you don’t your robbing God” would certainly seem to give that impression – the whole “give or else” philosophy.

Andrew said:

Rem the Internet / Radio argument?

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Listening to the radio, or using the internet is an area that God is silent on. God’s word says were there is no transgression of the Law there is no sin. The tithe is mentioned in the Law, the radio/internet are not mentioned – there for your comparison is flawed.

Andrew said:

Read Genesis again: the were not allowed to eat of one tree. I'm sure you know that.

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Ok………………and that has to do with tithing how? No mention of tithing there.

Andrew said:

You know, whether you like it or not, you do tithe. Only to the King of Sodom, not King of Salem. Your money may not be tithed to God, but it goes to the world's system through taxes, payments, repairs etc.

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Really, I give grain/produce/animals away, really? Huh, I didn’t realize I was raising that stuff, I’ll have to check my backyard again.

Currency is not a tithe according to the Bible – it’s black and white in God’s Holy infallible, inspired Word – He is the Creator and the Ruler of the universe, and if He intended for the tithe mentioned in His Holy Word to include currency He would have mentioned it. I choose not to add to or alter God’s Word – Jesus had a term for this “traditions of man” He also had some words to say about people to put those traditions above God’s Word.

So again, this is like the 400th time I’ve asked this question and no one from the pro tithing camp can answer it – where in God’s Word did the tithe as God defined it (grain/produce/animals) switch to currency? Where does this happen, where? If you can answer that question I’d be more than happy to engage in a discussion on this, but until then all your offering is false teachings and traditions of man – which I’m not interested in.

Oh and also, I like how no one ever took Muffler Dragon up on his official debate offer on here – I wonder why??????????

Andrew said:

And yes, you are robbing God. But God still loves you.

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Chapter and verse please where not giving 10% of the currency we get for an income is robbing God………..chapter and verse please.

Andrew said:

Yes, you are cursed, not by God, but by the curse that's already in the earth. What you receive as your paycheck is tainted with the curse becos it comes from the world. God offers a simple way to sanctify it, 10% and the rest is holy. But you refuse.

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Chapter and verse please that giving 10% of the currency I receive “sanctifies” my income – chapter and verse.

Andrew, before you start throwing around assertions of curses, please have Biblical basis for it rather than your opinion or someone elses.

Andrew said:

There is no law here. But you lose out that's all.

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Huh, God has and continues to bless me and I don’t tithe, rather I give generously as the Holy Spirit prompts me – it would be nice to only give 10%, as Andry said, I’d have more money in my wallet right now.

andry,

The scripture does say what it says. And the criteria for leadership is not "money" but faithfulness.

We want to hire or appoint ppl who will be faithful to the things of God -- the true riches. And one of (its not the only one) the criteria by which we guage this (faithfulness) is as the Bible says, how one handles money. When we know that a person is able to tithe his salary regulary to God (for all the right reasons), it says a lot to mgt how this person prioritises money and God. Does he put God first or mammon?

You may not agree with tithing but you cannot fault churches for wanting to hire or appoint people whom they can trust with the things of God, with God's sheep etc. We may differ in selection methods, but the motivation is right.

Andyman_1970 said:

Then your assertion is contrary to the Word of God.




The whole mindset of “if you don’t your robbing God” would certainly seem to give that impression – the whole “give or else” philosophy.



Listening to the radio, or using the internet is an area that God is silent on. God’s word says were there is no transgression of the Law there is no sin. The tithe is mentioned in the Law, the radio/internet are not mentioned – there for your comparison is flawed.



Ok………………and that has to do with tithing how? No mention of tithing there.



Really, I give grain/produce/animals away, really? Huh, I didn’t realize I was raising that stuff, I’ll have to check my backyard again.

Currency is not a tithe according to the Bible – it’s black and white in God’s Holy infallible, inspired Word – He is the Creator and the Ruler of the universe, and if He intended for the tithe mentioned in His Holy Word to include currency He would have mentioned it. I choose not to add to or alter God’s Word – Jesus had a term for this “traditions of man” He also had some words to say about people to put those traditions above God’s Word.

So again, this is like the 400th time I’ve asked this question and no one from the pro tithing camp can answer it – where in God’s Word did the tithe as God defined it (grain/produce/animals) switch to currency? Where does this happen, where? If you can answer that question I’d be more than happy to engage in a discussion on this, but until then all your offering is false teachings and traditions of man – which I’m not interested in.

Oh and also, I like how no one ever took Muffler Dragon up on his official debate offer on here – I wonder why??????????



Chapter and verse please where not giving 10% of the currency we get for an income is robbing God………..chapter and verse please.



Chapter and verse please that giving 10% of the currency I receive “sanctifies” my income – chapter and verse.

Andrew, before you start throwing around assertions of curses, please have Biblical basis for it rather than your opinion or someone elses.



Huh, God has and continues to bless me and I don’t tithe, rather I give generously as the Holy Spirit prompts me – it would be nice to only give 10%, as Andry said, I’d have more money in my wallet right now.

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Chp and verse does not do anything for the one who chooses to be blind.

Andyman_1970 said:

Huh, God has and continues to bless me and I don’t tithe, rather I give generously as the Holy Spirit prompts me – it would be nice to only give 10%, as Andry said, I’d have more money in my wallet right now.

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That's so true!

I realize that, at least in North America, only 5-6% of churchgoers tithe and/or give offerings. So basically (and unfortunately), this minority supports the financial operations.

In doing the simple math, if even 50% of churchgoers gave 10%, that's already a multiple of ten. And we can only imagine what that could mean in furthering the Kingdom.

I think we're aiming too low.

I believe (and it's my prayer) that if churchgoers gave, as the Holy Spirit instructs, it would exceed 100% of churchgoers giving 10%. Because only God knows how much $$$ is still needed until he returns.

So why are some of us stuck in just 10%?

So why are some of us stuck in just 10%?

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Simple becos the tithe is a tenth = 10%. That's all God asks for as far as the tithe is concerned. If you want to tithe 15% that's up to you.

That's the tithe. Then comes the giving and offerings. How much you want to give is up to you. Give as the Spirit leads.

But until you have tithed, you havent really given becos you still owe God 10%.

Andrew said:

Chp and verse does not do anything for the one who chooses to be blind.

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Well since the God's Word is our "baseline" for Truth chapter and verse have everything to do with it - unless of course I try to take the Scriptures out of context and spiritualize them.

I probably am blind to taking the Bible out of context and spiritualizing what God said rather than studying it in it's historically, culturally, and ligusitically correct understanding of the Bible like I'm prone to do.

Andrew said:

Simple becos the tithe is a tenth = 10%. That's all God asks for as far as the tithe is concerned. If you want to tithe 15% that's up to you.

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Really, John the Baptist when describing what the early Jesus movement was like paints a follower of Jesus as giving more like 50%.

I’m not a Jew, there is no Temple today, the tithe is irrelevant – go ask any Jew.

Andrew said:

That's the tithe. Then comes the giving and offerings.

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Chapter and verse were the tithe is currency, and the different “forms” of giving.

Andrew said:

But until you have tithed, you havent really given becos you still owe God 10%.

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Chapter and verse please – that same pesky question you still can’t answer.

Read Acts. there are 2 elements there. You're missing one. That's why you don't have the tithing revelation.

You are bogged down by the nitty gritty (like the radio and internet thing) and miss the whole spirit of the tithe and God's economic principle.

Andrew said:

Read Acts. there are 2 elements there. You're missing one. That's why you don't have the tithing revelation.

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Acts 2 does not mention tithing – it does mention living sacrificially with each other. A tithing revelation……………..I don’t need a new revelation, I have God’s Holy inspired infallible Word – any revelation that contradicts His Word (which yours does) I would assert is not from God – again that whole traditions of man thing Jesus talks about.

Andrew said:

You are bogged down by the nitty gritty (like the radio and internet thing) and miss the whole spirit of the tithe and God's economic principle.

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Yeah I get bogged down in all that studying the context of the Scriptures so I can understand the authors original intent – that pesky context.

When you can offer something from God’s Word that shows God changed the tithe to currency I’ll listen, but until then you’re only offering opinion and not Biblical fact.

I’m curious, you are a pretty strong advocate, why did you not take Muffler Dragon up on his debate offer – it was up for over a year before he left – and I know you were aware of it…………………interesting.

Yep, we need ole MD back for a while. For a topic like tithing to be so hot and such a big issue you would have figured the Apostle Paul would have devoted a little time to clear up the issue. Or perhaps there is no issue at all. Perhaps it is all laid out in Galatians, Colossians and Hebrews. Perhaps we are missing the simplistic work of Christ. 'Behold, I make all things new......'

Andyman_1970 said:

Yeah I get bogged down in all that studying the context of the Scriptures so I can understand the authors original intent – that pesky context.

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Studying God's Word is great. It's fantastic to understand the historical context in order to understand more fully the intent of the human author. The Bible is also of divine origin. God has revealed Himself through it. I'm sure that you spend just as long praying about His Word seeking to understand His revelation as you do looking into Paul's historical background for example to determine what he was saying; but I'm sure others reading this might need to be reminded that Scripture is of 100% human origin but also 100% divine... .

"Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's" (Matthew 22:21).

Tithing is not a matter of salvation and it is not a matter of law. You have been given salvation through Christ's death on the cross and have received deliverance from the Law through the same death. The Law has been superceded by a higher law of grace. At the same time, we have to ask whether it is right to give our income to God. If He asks for our life and we only give Him 10% of our income I can't imagine Him being happy. If He asks for our life and we refuse to give Him any of our income, I can't imagine that we are pleasing Him.

To my mind, we are called to be stewards, we are called to be disciples, we are called to be good fathers and mothers, we are called to be responsible citizens. We are told to pay taxes to the state, we are called to provide for our families, we are called to carry our cross, and I believe that we must also investigate how we can use our income for the proclamation of the gospel.

David333 said:

Studying God's Word is great. It's fantastic to understand the historical context in order to understand more fully the intent of the human author. The Bible is also of divine origin. God has revealed Himself through it. I'm sure that you spend just as long praying about His Word seeking to understand His revelation as you do looking into Paul's historical background for example to determine what he was saying; but I'm sure others reading this might need to be reminded that Scripture is of 100% human origin but also 100% divine... .

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Here in lies my issue with the assertion the tithe is for today – when we lift the Scriptures out of their original historical, cultural, and linguistic context a “gap” of understanding is created and in this “gap” man can (and does) insert their own fallible understandings rather than lean on those of the original author. To perform Scriptural gymnastics to “get” the tithe to be for today is IMO a misuse of the Text, and a false teachings – any “new” revelation that is contrary to the Scriptures is IMO not of God, God does no contradict Himself.

David333 said:

Tithing is not a matter of salvation and it is not a matter of law. You have been given salvation through Christ's death on the cross and have received deliverance from the Law through the same death. The Law has been superceded by a higher law of grace.

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This is a topic for another thread, but salvation has always been by grace, even in the Old Testament.

David333 said:

At the same time, we have to ask whether it is right to give our income to God. If He asks for our life and we only give Him 10% of our income I can't imagine Him being happy. If He asks for our life and we refuse to give Him any of our income, I can't imagine that we are pleasing Him.

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This begs the question, can we do things to gain God’s favor, which it seems you are alluding to. God’s grace and love are unconditional, there is nothing I can do to get God to love me anymore, there is nothing I can do to make God love me any less – that’s what the word agape mean.

Whether or not I give a predetermined amount does not matter to God, what matters to God is that I give it with the correct heart condition – check out Isaiah chapter 1, these were folks who were doing exactly as the Torah prescribed and yet their heart was far from God, and God says He hated what they offered Him. I can give 10% until the cows come home, but if I do it our of a sense or obligation or “have to” – according to Isaiah 1 God hates that. This leads me to what Paul said in 2 Corinthians 9:7 “Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly, or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.” A Christian giving 10% because some pastor has told him that if he doesn't he's robbing God is giving under compulsion - and not how God wants us to give.

God wants our hearts, and when God has our hearts we’ll start to care about the things God cares about, we’ll start to care about the people God cares about. When you read the Gospels, people who’s hearts and lives are in harmony with God are way more generous with their stuff than a mere 10%.

David333 said:

To my mind, we are called to be stewards, we are called to be disciples, we are called to be good fathers and mothers, we are called to be responsible citizens. We are told to pay taxes to the state, we are called to provide for our families, we are called to carry our cross, and I believe that we must also investigate how we can use our income for the proclamation of the gospel.

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I couldn’t agree with you more. You mention that we are called to be disciples – in Jesus day a disciples whole live revolved around learning about their rabbi (in this case and our case that’s Jesus), so they can do what their rabbi (Jesus for us) did, so they can become like their rabbi (Jesus). Jesus speaks a lot about taking care of those who are in need around us, in fact the only instance Jesus mentions someone in an actual Hell is a person who was wealthy and did not take care of those in need around him.

I’m all for using the resources God has given us wisely and for the good of those around us – however the tithe is not that vehicle – it is irrelevant for today according to God’s Word.

Andrew said:

andry,

The scripture does say what it says. And the criteria for leadership is not "money" but faithfulness.

We want to hire or appoint ppl who will be faithful to the things of God -- the true riches. And one of (its not the only one) the criteria by which we guage this (faithfulness) is as the Bible says, how one handles money. When we know that a person is able to tithe his salary regulary to God (for all the right reasons), it says a lot to mgt how this person prioritises money and God. Does he put God first or mammon?

You may not agree with tithing but you cannot fault churches for wanting to hire or appoint people whom they can trust with the things of God, with God's sheep etc. We may differ in selection methods, but the motivation is right.

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So Andrew, if I attended your church, and didn't tithe, but gave instead (and all other 'spiritual' matters being equal), would I qualify to be in a leadership position?

If your church leadership saw that my 'contribution' (for the sake of semantics) record exceeds the minimum 10% of my income (how they would know, I know not), but I didn't 'tithe' that money, but 'gave' it, am I faithful or not faithful with my finances?

If my 'contribution' exceeded 60-70% of my income, I head up a multi-national in S'pore, I live on Holland Rd, and I drive two S-classes and a G-wagon, but didn't put my contribution on the "Tithe" line of the church envelope but instead put it on the "Offering" line, then according to what you've indicated about your church leadership, I'm still not faithful because I don't tithe.

How absurd is that? Can you say legalist?

Truth is, (and I'm not boasting, but only to expose the ridiculousness of some church 'rules' - and not to accuse yours in any way, but from personal experience) I manage my financial affairs better than most people, and my giving exceeds most tithers (including their 'offerings') percentage wise. Now I couldn't care less about being a 'leader' in the church. But to say I don't qualify because I don't tithe is rubbish, especially when the church will gladly take my 'giving' money, and then turnaround and say I'm still not tithing.

Please explain the logic to me.